Alex992

Thoughts on submitting to your husband and the role of a husband as being the leader

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This is a very touchy subject from the bible. In the bible, God says the role of a women is to be submissive to her husband and that the husband has to be the leader of the household. People automatically think that a woman being submissive is a trait of weakness and that she wil never have a say in the decisions made. I read an article and it has swayed my views and gave me understanding of the woman's role in a marriage.

http://www.reason4living.com/articles/totw0041.htm

I believe that submission shows the woman's sign of strength and faith to God. Submission from a wife to her husband is a gift and if a man takes advantage by abusing that gift, than that man is a fool plain and simple. I want the ladies to read this article and let me know what your thoughts are on the topic. Thanks!

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I'm an atheist and a 21st century woman - the only thing I'll ever submit to is a chocolate bar.

I think this article REALLY needs to look up the term "submission" in the dictionary, because I don't think it understands the meaning.

All wives should be loyal, loving, caring, and appreciative. So should all husbands. I know this article doesn't mean any offense, but it's stuff like this that really bothers me about religion.

Spouses should submit to each other equally. Or both be the leaders of the household.

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Moved to Religious Topics.

Sophie, you do realize that the Bible is older than the any dictionary, right? Words change over time and the word "submit" does not have the same context as it does today. So you cannot look at this without understanding the context of the original source. If anything, I would argue that it's modern society that has perverted the term "submission" and associated it with abuse or oppression. Which is totally not what the Bible is saying at all.

In the biblical context, submission is something that is given voluntarily. It cannot be forced. Really, it's a sign of trust. God calls wives to submit to husbands but husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. Which do you think is more difficult? That is an almost impossible order for a human man to undertake! A husband is commanded to love, cherish and lay down his life for her if need be. When you read it in context, there is no way anyone can argue that abuse can enter the picture. No Christian woman should ever trust a man who is not committed to loving her the way the way Jesus loves His Church.

In addition, the worst thing a wife can do is to remain silent and passive. Submission does not mean do nothing and allow her husband to make every decision. A wife should and must voice her own mind and strong in her conviction. I would not marry a woman who was complacent. Because when a woman becomes complacent, she is enabling her husband to boss her around and dominate her. That is unbiblical and abusive.

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The first part's okay. I mean, technically (I've said this somewhere already), submitting to something means to put yourself under the mission of something. Since the mission of the husband is to love his wife as Christ loves His Bride the Church, then that seems pretty easy to submit to.

The second part's a little crazy..."Honey, our neighbour was badmouthing me. I'm going to go over there and beat him with a red-hot poker." "Oh, well, I really don't think that's the right thing to do...but, if that's what you want, you're my husband, and I can't stop you. It'd be a sin to try and stop you hurting him." That makes no sense. Of course you can stop your husband from committing a sin. I do remember reading in the Catechism that one of the goals of a Christian marriage is for husband and wife to help each other live a holy life and help them grow in faith. It therefore seems to me that the correct thing to do in a case like that would be for the wife to graciously correct her husband, and remind him of what God calls him to do. "Now, sweetie, I understand you're very upset with what he said to you, but remember: Christ taught us to love our enemies and pray for them, and not to hurt others."

xxx

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I personally love this quote from Terry Pratchett's Discworld series of books:

Usually she got her own way and he was happy to give it to her, but the unspoken agreement was that when he really insisted, she listened. It’s a married couple thing

The other thing to remember is that if the husband makes the decision, he has to live with the consequences and bear the responsibility for anything that arises from it. As Vince said a loving husband will respect and listen to his wife in everything he does :)

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I would argue that it's modern society that has perverted the term "submission" and associated it with abuse or oppression. Which is totally not what the Bible is saying at all.

Submission still implies that someone is the leader and someone is the follower. Which is NOT something I can approve of in marriage. Gender expectations really sicken me. And yes, that also means I am against the idea that guys are supposed to be all macho, the protectors of women, know how to fix cars, unemotional, etc.

In the biblical context, submission is something that is given voluntarily. It cannot be forced.

Voluntary or not, I just love how this is only expected of females. /sarcasm

Really, it's a sign of trust. God calls wives to submit to husbands but husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves the Church. Which do you think is more difficult? That is an almost impossible order for a human man to undertake!

It is also an impossible order to call women to be submissive, at least now in the 21st century when we have finally been given unlimited freedom (in most countries.) Contrary to whatever you might believe, women have been forced into submission and obedience for the past dozens of thousands of years and still are being forced into that in many different countries. Very few women would willingly want to "submit."

In addition, the worst thing a wife can do is to remain silent and passive. Submission does not mean do nothing and allow her husband to make every decision. A wife should and must voice her own mind and strong in her conviction. I would not marry a woman who was complacent. Because when a woman becomes complacent, she is enabling her husband to boss her around and dominate her. That is unbiblical and abusive.

Then what DOES submission mean in the bible? If it means love, loyalty, and kindness, then that should be expected of both spouses. But it seems like only wives are supposed to be "submissive." So how does that mean they are supposed to treat their husbands differently than their husbands treat them?

I don't mean to sound so snippy and irritated. I just am a firm believer in gender equality and the annihilation of gender expectations. I tend to get very passionate when standing up for my gender.

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I believe that submission shows the woman's sign of strength and faith to God. Submission from a wife to her husband is a gift and if a man takes advantage by abusing that gift, than that man is a fool plain and simple. I want the ladies to read this article and let me know what your thoughts are on the topic. Thanks!

I used to have a problem with these parts of the bible but then I also remember reading that #1 the role of the husband is not as a master thus marriage is not a master/slave relationshipo and #2 the husband actually had to act like a husband. If the husband puts drinking, gambling, cheating, drugs before the wife he has violated the role of husband. We see this in other relationships that are in the bible (not marriage but hopefully you get the idea)- the master is not supposed to mistreat the slave; the master is not a master if it does not act as such (i.e abusing the slave). So I do believe the idea is that the woman puts her faith in the husband and follows his ruling but only if the husband acts like a man. And there is nothing that says the woman can't speak her mind; it's not like she has to shut up when he is talking if she disagrees with his choice; communication is the key and she is not a slave. I think a good definition for submissive could be passive or humble- two qualities that can be attained if the wife trust the husband. Another thing is that in the bible many men were actually submissive to their wives and listened to their statements. Anyone remember Salome and her mom, Pharoh and his wife in Exodus, Jezebel and Ahab. Those guys listened to everything their wives said and their wives were pretty messed up. Also when Abraham cheated on his wife and his wife told him to kick out the maid he cheated with he actually listened. He didn't have to listen because women did not have any power back in the day but he did. I sometimes think it is written that women should be submissive but through the men's actions in the bible they are also submissive. Honestly I remember some times when the women actually obeyed her husband but a lot of the times they refused him. At the end of the day in an honest and good marriage the wife is not forced into submission; she allows it because she trust he husband. She is humble and peace-loving. And it is obvious that the husband is supposed to do the same and did in biblical times. I simply think the submissive thing is looking at the woman as being humble, peace-loving and nuturing instead of a slave. The bible never says that the husband has to be dominant or macho or anything just that he be a good husband. Just to extend that the bible also never condones a husband cheating or beating his wife- he gets as much blame for wrongdoing as she does.

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I have had many conversations about this specifically. We had quite the bible study one night as discussion got heated about it. I don't like the word 'submit'. It has a negative connotation to me personally. My one friend said it essentially means to "selflessly love". I said I could just take Ephesians 5:22-23 and just omit "submit" and put in "selflessly love" for my own understanding. It helps me to get a better picture of what it means for today's world. Obviously, God is not saying as women we shouldn't have a voice or hold a job, or stand by passively as our husbands do something terrible/make a terrible decision, etc. (We should make important decisions together, be able to give and take advice, etc.)

Ecclesiates 4:9-12 is more positive as well as Gensis 2:18, Ephesians 4:2-3, and Phillipians 2:2

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Nice! Thanks everyone for your opinions. I believe if a man is a true christian and a woman is a true christian, then they will naturally follow their roles out of their love for God and eachother. The truth is that there is expectations for both genders, its just natural. If there was to ever be gender equality, that means a man will be able to fight with a woman as if she was a man. Dont mean to sound harsh but it's true. For instance, look at basketball. Only about 3 or 4 woman in the WNBA have ever been able to dunk a basketball, while in the NBA, men dunk a basketball like it's nothing. Another example is music. I believe woman are better singers than men imo. Not saying that one gender is better than the other, but rather that both genders are just diffrent. Some things men can do better, while there are some things woman can do better. Gender equality will only come if everyone some how becomes one gender. That's just the way it is.

And I must admit @Sally, submission does kind of sound harsh. But I believe it is man's sinful ways that have twisted the word for what God truly meant it to be. It's sad.

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Not saying that one gender is better than the other, but rather that both genders are just diffrent. Some things men can do better, while there are some things woman can do better. Gender equality will only come if everyone some how becomes one gender. That's just the way it is.

Yeah I can go along with this. Just because there are differences between the genders doesn't mean one is better than the other. Its not like there is some "gender equality" pie and it has to be a 50/50 split. It's not a zero sum game. Saying the genders are different or 'not equal' (tho I prefer different I dont like saying not equal) implies to some that men have more of the pie and women have less...or vice versa. But again its not a zero sum game!! There is no pie (newsflash lol) and there are no numbers or percentages to add up (sorry if that analogy made no sense it did in my head lol) Frankly I'm glad the genders are different and if I didn't I might as well be bisexual right!? Lol I know that sounds ridiculous but come on you get my drift :P

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And I must admit @Sally, submission does kind of sound harsh. But I believe it is man's sinful ways that have twisted the word for what God truly meant it to be. It's sad

Agree completely. The biblical "submission" is much different than what many in society think. But I also believe a lot of people like to use that verse among others just to knock Christianity and supposedly show how "old and outdated" it is. Yeah loving your wife as Christ loved the church and loving your neighbor as yourself is outdated...Christian or not if more people did that the world would be a better place.

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Being the strong willed, stubborn, and independent woman I am, when I first heard about being submissive to my (future) husband, I will admit that a fire came up from my toes and nearly escaped my lips when I made myself stop. I made myself think about what was really meant, here. I read Ephesians 5 (for you guys) and Proverbs 31 (for us girls) and I was like "Oh, I get it." Being submissive doesn't mean that you lack identity, that you give up your own opinions or rights, that you just let the man make every single decision without your input as you follow along sheepishly. No. In fact, if I ever felt as though my husband was stepping outside of the biblical guidelines of marriage/relationship and outside of God's will for his life, I would definitely have a little chat with him. If he is not following God with all of his heart, I will not be following him. It's that simple. I don't believe (I believe they exist, but I don't want to partake in one) in unequally yoked relationships/marriages. I grew up under the one my parents share, and it is quite frankly a disaster. That's why ever since getting very serious about my walk with God (after becoming very ill and literally called back from death's door in February 2012) I've began to re-evaluate my needs within a relationship and what do I truly want? All I keep coming back to is "the right real-lationship" meaning the way that God intends for relationship (and eventually marriage) to be. I'm so serious, and I pray for my future husband everyday. That he is strong in his faith, that he is waiting for me as I am waiting for him, and that he always submit his own will to the will of God for his life so that I can walk beside him, one day. :)

Like I said, when I first heard about this whole submission thing, I got fired up but a better part of me knew that it longed for more thorough examination. I did examine it a bit deeper, and I agree with it. I agree with not being in an unequally yoked relationship/marriage (hello, that's partially why I'm still single...) and I agree with submitting to my husband as the leader of our home, as long as he's truly following God. God's will and God's way for his own life, then for our life together as husband and wife. If he ever steps outside of the boundaries for God's will in his life, I will have a serious issue with being submissive to him. How could I when he doesn't even do the right thing? Integrity is important to me, and something earned when no one is watching. If I trust my husband, and trust that he is honestly a man of God (and not a boy of the world), then I will have no problems submitting to his vision for our life, because I know it will be rooted in goodness and the principles of the Bible/God's standards for marriage and relationship. However, this does not make me some spineless woman who just does whatever her husband wants or says without any opinion of my own. No, absolutely not. I am quite opinionated and feel it my duty to speak up when something is out of line. Then together, we can pray, readjust, and make sure that our decisions and actions are truly Christ centered. That's all I truly want at the end of the day, and if that falls under the definition of submission, then so be it. I am to submit to him, as he is to submit to Christ and have a love for me as Christ does for His church. That's quite beautiful, really, considering how much Christ loves the church.

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For instance, look at basketball. Only about 3 or 4 woman in the WNBA have ever been able to dunk a basketball, while in the NBA, men dunk a basketball like it's nothing.

That's gender differences not gender equality. No one can deny that on average, a man has at least twice the strength a woman does. Gender equality means acknowledging the differences in strength, height, natural abilities, emotions, bodies, etc, but not putting men and women in categories of what they "should" or "should not" be. Men being the "leader" of the household is a prime example of outdated misogyny. If men were the ones with the weaker physical strength and who carried children, it would be the other way around. And personally, from what I've seen, men aren't that great at leading. Men were not "made" to lead, nor were women "made" to follow. I believe we were made to stand EQUAL next to each other and work TOGETHER so the gender differences we have COMPLETE each other.

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I believe we were made to stand EQUAL next to each other and work TOGETHER so the gender differences we have COMPLETE each other.

I can see this, too. I believe in being a team. In sports comprised of teams, they all come to a conclusion together, one that will benefit their team as a whole. But there may be a captain of the team, and the rest follow him... But I think they all add their input as to how the game should be played. That's how I feel. Haha I don't want to literally follow my husband, I want him to respect my views and input as to how our game (marriage and life together) should be played. I want to stand behind him, but I want him to lead us in the right direction... The two of us, following God's will for our life together. :)

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But there may be a captain of the team, and the rest follow him...

Yeah, but a soccer team and a marriage is a little bit different.

It just bugs me that all religions say men should be the "leaders." I mean what is wrong with women leading? Why do we have to be "submissive"?

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Yeah, but a soccer team and a marriage is a little bit different.

It just bugs me that all religions say men should be the "leaders." I mean what is wrong with women leading? Why do we have to be "submissive"?

That's why I made the analogy of the team... You all have your input, but maybe one person leads the follow through. Doesn't make any player of less significance, because if you aren't all shooting for the same goal you'll never win, anyway. In my eyes, marriage is about teamwork, and setting a solid example for our children and those around us. The goal we're shooting for being to live our lives as true Christians and completely Christ centered.

I don't know why men are always depicted as the leader or why women are the submissive partner, but it doesn't bother me or make me feel threatened. I know that great men have strong women beside them in their lives, and that I will prove to be that woman for my husband. I'm sorry this gets to you so much, really. It doesn't mean you're lacking identity or that you're spineless and unable to make your own decisions. I think it takes more strength to submit to your husband's will WHEN he submits his will to Christ. If couples actually abode to these principles, marriage and relationship would be so much better.

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I'm sorry this gets to you so much, really. It doesn't mean you're lacking identity or that you're spineless and unable to make your own decisions. I think it takes more strength to submit to your husband's will WHEN he submits his will to Christ. If couples actually abode to these principles, marriage and relationship would be so much better.

Well, as long as the bible's version of "submissive" only means the wife being loving, loyal, appreciative, and kind, then I guess that's okay because I hope to be that kind of wife.

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That's exactly what it means! @sophie

I suggst everyone goes to gotquestions.org this site has helped me with my understanding of the bible especially on topics about marriage.

Thanks everyone for all your inputs.

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My personal belief is that because the bible was written by man; it is ingrained within the societal context it was written - regardless of how it was inspired. I know that gives me the flexibility to pick and choose what I believe in and in short, I do.

From my understanding of the previous comment is that the bible (I have dipped into sections but I am never going to realistically read it from cover to cover / study it comprehensively) is that it is the role of a man to lead and the role of women to follow.

However, it is the duty of a man to lead in his wife's best interest and to use her opinions.

It is the duty of a women to tell her husband what is best and to support him in the action of doing what is best.

Then because the man and women are both 'submitting' or following the mission of Christ they cannot do too much wrong.

Have I misinterpreted? I apologise if I have and could someone possibly help me clear up the misconception.

Now it is nothing to do with status of being a 'leader' as a person's 'followers' are always just as important.

However, what if the wife is the better leader? Stereotypes do not neatly apply to individuals and using your example - men at the elite level are better at basketball but I can assure that any of those women at the elite level would trash me. Men are normally physically stronger, yet some of those women in the Olympics would make me look comparatively weak.

What would happen if the wife was the best person to lead the mission as such? So why cannot the man submit to his wife and the women love her husband like Jesus loves his church? (Might have misquoted but you understand what I mean - the reversal of roles based on individual circumstances)

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Hmmm...Good question @Nick. Im assuming you are a non-believer so it will be tough for me to make you understand. You most likely won't read this and say ''oh that makes sense'', but here it goes. It is true that there are woman who are better leaders than a man. As far as the women in sports trashing you, that's perfectly normal since you don't receive the same nutrition and training as them. It also helps that the WNBA players and track stars are physically taller than the average man. Im sure they will trash me too. The women and men get the same amount of training in those sports and since the man is biologically stronger, those men will naturally excel. Im pretty sure though that there are some women in the WNBA who can beat a man in the NBA one on one, who knows.

Now as far as the woman being a better leader than her man, it all comes down to compatability. I believe God will want that woman to find a man who will better suite her to be her spiritual leader. No one christian man will be a suitable leader for EVERY christian woman. This is just my uneducated guess. I must stress that the man having the role of the leader does not mean the man is better than the woman in God's eyes. It DOES NOT mean the woman has no right to express her opinion. It also DOES NOT mean that the man being the leader, will mean that all his choices will be correct. It's just a diffrence in roles. God commanded that this will be the natural order as a way of discipline once Eve gave into her tempation from Satan to eat the forbidden fruit.

Something else that must be considered is that it will takes knowing & accepting God's word to properly follow the biblical way of marriage, with man being the leader and the woman to submit. Assuming that the couple with the woman having stronger leadership qualities both believe in Jesus as their personal savior, naturally out of their love for God and the help of the spirit of God, they will follow their biblical roles if they are married.

Something I've also noticed from personal experience, (some, or as I believe, most) woman just naturally love a man who can be the leader in the relationship. Although many won't blatantly say ''I want the guy to be the leader'', they will describe their ideal guy to have leadership qualities without giving them the title as the leader in the relationship. You notice this when a woman wants a man to be assertive, ask her out first, be her protector, and they always want the man to choose a place when they go out on a date (or atleast the first date). The ''bad boys'' are usually the ones who fit into this category, while the ''nice guys'' who are mostly shy and less outgoing are most likely to go with anything the woman says.That is why plenty of women mistakenly fall for the bad boy type who are mostly selfish guys, and turn out being hurt since the guy did not love them ''like christ loved the church''. It could be just my surroundings, but most woman are turned off by men who are not assertive. A lot of woman don't want to be the one to pick the place, make the first move to a crush, etc. Again this is what I view from personal experience. Im sure there are woman who want to be the leader of the relationship or atleast think they want to be the leader.

In the end, it is about commitment to each other. God commands married couples to commit to each other according to the roles he has assigned to us. We must follow his word to make our marriages last ''till death do us part'', instead of ''till our feelings fade away''.

Btw Nick, I respect that you are a non religous guy that is waiting. Just goes to show not all men are the same.

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Agreed that most women prefer/want the man to be leader and not every Christian women being appropriate for every men Christian is rational explanation based on their roles.

Still disagree on the sporting ability even if you exclude environmental factors. I think that all natural talent (like natural talent + environment) creates a normal distribution. Some people will be at the one bottom end of the bell curve, the majority in the middle and a few at the top. That to me is perfectly normal and would be true to whatever aspect of the population you are measuring (And I think that is fine because everyone is good at something). Even if everyone trained at the same sport and had the same environment I still think performance (e.g. sprinting) would form a bell curve. I also think that the women's and men's bell curve would cross at some point (maybe the bottom 10% of males crosses with the top 10% of females - only a speculation to show my idea). If every man trained like Bolt to become a 100meter runner not everyone of them would be able to run faster than 10.49 second. To argue that all men given the same environment would perform better than the most naturally gifted females is a hard sell to me.

The only other issue with giving people such classified roles is that I would have great sympathy for the man who sit at the bottom end of the leadership bell curve. I am sure you have met such people that are not born to lead (which I think is perfectly fine - everyone is good at something and we cannot all be good at the same thing). What does this person do? The person who does not have the natural traits of being strong, a protector, spiritual leader etc. Saying that he has to play a role that he would be inept at doing seems slightly harsh and puts pressure on him to perform at a role that he cannot do.

Also, his pick of potential wives that he could lead is so much smaller than someone who is at the top end of the leadership bell curve - that again seems unfair.

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Life is unfair brotha I think all of us got a little taste of that saying lol. For a man who unfortunatley has weak leadership and want to follow God's role of marriage, I would say to him pray to God for guidance. God doesn't exactly command us to have leadership qualities like Alexander the Great or anything, but just good enough for our family. As a christian man, I look to my leader Jesus Christ to give me the leadership qualities he would want me to have.

Btw I am that guy who is not the greatest at having leadership qualities. I am not assertive, I am timid, and my way of articulating myself is not so good. I am cofident however that the God I believe in is guiding me and preparing me every step of the way to improve spiritually to do his good work, and be a great provider for my family. Not neccesarily to provide with just money and ''things'', but to provide with food for the spirit which I get from the scripture. Although some people are less gifted than others, I do believe with some faith and hard work, they can improve.

And yes you're right about that, not all men will exceed physically over all women.

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Life is unfair brotha I think all of us got a little taste of that saying lol. For a man who unfortunatley has weak leadership and want to follow God's role of marriage, I would say to him pray to God for guidance. God doesn't exactly command us to have leadership qualities like Alexander the Great or anything, but just good enough for our family. As a christian man, I look to my leader Jesus Christ to give me the leadership qualities he would want me to have.

Btw I am that guy who is not the greatest at having leadership qualities. I am not assertive, I am timid, and my way of articulating myself is not so good. I am cofident however that the God I believe in is guiding me and preparing me every step of the way to improve spiritually to do his good work, and be a great provider for my family. Not neccesarily to provide with just money and ''things'', but to provide with food for the spirit which I get from the scripture. Although some people are less gifted than others, I do believe with some faith and hard work, they can improve.

And yes you're right about that, not all men will exceed physically over all women.

I agree with you wholeheartedly about a husband's responsibility to seek God and pray. Leaders are not born. Leadership must be cultivated. If a person fails to cultivate his/her leadership skills through prayer and Biblical wisdom, he/she will prove to be a poor leader.

Moses was a reluctant leader. He didn't speak well and lacked confidence (Ex 4:1-31). As a result, God sent Moses' brother Aaron along to help him. In a marriage, God might give a husband a wife who is capable of assisting him in an area that he might be weak in. The thing about "help" is that it's useless unless you accept it. Moses' leadership skills improved along the way as he continued to be in relationship with God. He made mistakes along the way because he was human.

Titus 1:6-9 lists the qualifications for an elder/leader in the Christian community - church. As we know, elders and leaders are to be an example for the other members of the body of Christ. With that in mind, Christian husbands should mimic and learn from the elder's leadership style.

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It's really hard to explain, but I've never had a hang-up with this like most women have. I want my husband to be the spiritual leader of our family. I want to have a marriage the way God intended it to be. If I marry the man that God has set aside for me, why wouldn't I freely submit myself to him? Husbands are called to love their wives as Christ loves, and gave Himself up for the Church. If he can do that, I think I can honor him by submitting myself to him. Does it mean I won't be an individual? No. Does it mean I've lost my free will? No. Does it mean he's gonna be perfect and not make mistakes? No. Does it mean I will never have a say in any decisions or choices we have to make? No. It just means that I love him and trust him to love me and make decisions based on the love that we share. Does it mean that I was born in the wrong century? Possibly.....

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