Innocence

Would You Date Someone Who Is Still Friends With Past Sexual Partners?

32 posts in this topic

I realized that there is a topic almost identical to this in the Ask the Guys section. However, I wanted to resurrect the topic since that last thread was very old, and also to open up the discussion to girls as well as guys. So here is the scenario, and this is a true story that actually happened:

Innocence is a virgin and dates and falls deeply in love with Alexander. Alexander is not a virgin and told Innocence that information near the beginning of the relationship. Innocence is initially okay with that and the relationship continues. Many months later, Alexander introduces Innocence to one of his single female friends, Amanda. Now, Amanda also happens to be a former sex partner of Alexander's, but Alexander doesn't tell Innocence that. Alexander has a best friend, Charles, who happens to be a virgin. Charles is single and looking for a wife, so Alexander thinks it would be a great idea if he set up his best friend (Charles) with Amanda (his single female friend who was also an ex partner). So Charles and Amanda start dating and eventually get serious with one another. Charles also does not know that Amanda is a former sex partner of Alexander's. Eventually, Innocence happens to ask Alexander a seemingly inconsequential question related to Alexander's sexual past, and the truth comes out as to who Amanda is (a former sexual partner with Alexander). As a result of this shocking revelation, the truth also spreads to Charles, who finds out from Alexander (his best friend) that he has been set up with one of his former sex partners.

How would you feel if you were Innocence in this situation? How would you feel if you were Charles? If you were Innocence or Charles, would you want to stay in the relationship knowing that sex in the past between these friends had happened? What about asking to cut friendship ties because of the sexual history? If you were Innocence, would you want Alexander to cut friendship ties with Amanda and his best friend (because now the best friend, Charles, is serious with Amanda and thus they're now a couple in which they can start to be seen as one person). What about if you were Charles? Would there be a desire to cut ties with your best friend, Alexander, because he set you up with a former sex partner of his and didn't tell you this at first? 

Looking forward to hearing all of your opinions and how you would react in this situation.

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Wow, that quite a confusing keeping track of all the Persons that I had to reread it a couple times to make sure I understood. lol

First off, I don't believe in asking a significant other to cut ties with a friend unless that friend is either a toxic influence on her or the friend is trying to sabotage our relationship. That being said, I cannot be with someone who is close friends with someone they slept with. It's simply out of the question. It's already difficult enough having to deal with the fact she isn't a virgin. It would be too much to handle having to be around that person and watching my girl enjoy his company knowing full well they were naked and intimate together. I know that I would be unfairly hostile and resentful towards him. I am just being honest. I just couldn't handle it.

In addition, I don't think people should be friends with people they slept with. I don't have a problem with people being friends with an ex as long as it was in a limited capacity and they didn't sleep together. But sex is such a powerful and intimate act. I don't understand how two people who slept together can remain friends and act like nothing happened. Either they both don't see sex as a big deal or their past experience has bonded them in such a way that they still are holding on to lingering feelings towards each other. Whatever the case, I don't want to be with a girl like that.

I also have to wonder how someone could possibly not mention to their significant other that one of their close friends is a ex sex partner. Sexual past is a big deal, it's not something one just conveniently forget to bring up in the beginning. It makes me believe that she is trying to hide that fact from me. Both people should be completely transparent about any major past baggage. When you enter a romantic relationship, the other person has the right to know these things. If the girl I'm with doesn't bring it up on her own accord then it says to be she is either lying by omission or doesn't see sex as a big deal. Once again, I wouldn't want to be with a girl like that because she is either not trustworthy or we have fundamentally different values.

So to answer your question after that long-winded novel, I wouldn't ask her to end the friendship her friend. I would simply end the relationship with the girl.

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35 minutes ago, Invincible said:

Wow, that quite a confusing keeping track of all the Persons that I had to reread it a couple times to make sure I understood. lol

Ahaha:lol::P I quite agree with Vince here:P

@Innocence : I think it would have been easier if you had put fictive names instead of "Person A" / "Person B":P  But anyway, we got the point, and thank you for sharing this story;)

19 minutes ago, Invincible said:

In addition, I don't think people should be friends with people they slept with. I don't have a problem with people being friends with an ex as long as it was in a limited capacity and they didn't sleep together. But sex is such a powerful and intimate act. I don't understand how two people who slept together can remain friends and act like nothing happened. Either they both don't see sex as a big deal or their past experience has bonded them in such a way that they still are holding on to lingering feelings towards each other. Whatever the case, I don't want to be with a girl like that.

Actually, I understand your point of view...

But when you consider for example two christians who weren't believers in the past and have slept together ...then became christians and realise their mistakes and know that thay aren't meant for each other....as they are now brother and sister in Christ, they have been redeemed and they have forgiven each other...I believe that's a good example of showing their faith by remaining in good terms... I don't say that they have to be close friends...well, I agree that's inappropriate...But at least in good terms...especially if they go to the same church building for example...:unsure:

Unfortunately, there were cases like that in a church I used to go to...:unsure:

38 minutes ago, Invincible said:

I also have to wonder how someone could possibly not mention to their significant other that one of their close friends is a ex sex partner. Sexual past is a big deal, it's not something one just conveniently forget to bring up in the beginning. It makes me believe that she is trying to hide that fact from me. Both people should be completely transparent about any major past baggage. When you enter a romantic relationship, the other person has the right to know these things. If the girl I'm with doesn't bring it up on her own accord then it says to be she is either lying by omission or doesn't see sex as a big deal. Once again, I wouldn't want to be with a girl like that because she is either not trustworthy or we have fundamentally different values.

Hmm...totally agree...

 

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LOL!

Reading that thread kind of turned into an algebra word problem. If Jane is five years older than Bill and Bill is ten years younger Sally and Sally was born one year after Tina, how old.....

So, if we were persons A and D how would we react?

Ok, my answer is kind of quick and boring because things are pretty black and white with me. I don't romantically pursue people who've had sex before. As person A I would never date person B. As person D I wouldn't date person C after I found out. Besides I try to get that out in the open fairly quick, I may have already discovered things on my own.

Usually on an early date (not the first date but not waiting until tenth date either) I'll say something along the lines of "How old were you when you lost your virginity?" kind of implying that I already have too, to weed out those who'll lie about it if they know I'm a virgin and I'm waiting.

I suppose those who are waiting but do not mind if those they date haven't waited wouldn't care, not unless there was some type of dishonesty about it. I forget if you mentioned person B or C trying to "hide" anything or was dishonest in any way.

Anyway, for me those are deal breakers.

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To answer the overarching question: no, I think exes should take their lives in different directions in order to move on completely. Being around an ex would make it significantly more difficult; cutting off ties for a long period of time is the best way to move forward, otherwise the window is always open to get back together. It's already challenging enough without regular exposure. And I wouldn't ask someone to cut off ties with someone else because they should already know to limit their communication with the person.

In terms of a past relationship, I would expect the couple to have ended things on good terms, a sign of relational maturity, and that they wish one another well in the future in a detached sense like they would anyone else. If someone still holds emotions, overly positive or negative, that is a sign they are still hung up on someone. I wouldn't date anyone who felt strongly about an ex whether anger or friendly attachment. I don't think anyone should even consider dating until they've reached emotional neutrality regarding their ex.

The best "thing" to keep from an old relationship is not a friendship but the lessons learned so you can be a better partner to your future spouse. They should be the priority.

 

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Lol! Okay, sorry everyone for making this sound confusing with all the persons. I actually did have a debate with myself as to whether to use fictitious names or the person label approach. I guess I made the wrong choice haha, and so Geraldine, I will keep in mind what you suggested about using fictitious names in the future for complicated scenarios like this one.

Well, let me try to fix this by adding some names so that perhaps this scenario will be easier to understand:

Person A: Innocence (I'll admit that I was part of this disastrous scenario)

Person B: Alexander

Person C: Amanda

Person D: Charles 

I also edited my first post, so now you all can read it with names instead lol.

5 hours ago, Invincible said:

In addition, I don't think people should be friends with people they slept with. I don't have a problem with people being friends with an ex as long as it was in a limited capacity and they didn't sleep together. But sex is such a powerful and intimate act. I don't understand how two people who slept together can remain friends and act like nothing happened. Either they both don't see sex as a big deal or their past experience has bonded them in such a way that they still are holding on to lingering feelings towards each other. Whatever the case, I don't want to be with a girl like that.

Amen to that Vince! I am comforted that you feel that way because I also view sex as such a deep physical and emotional act of oneness (I personally feel it's as if you are sharing your souls with one another), and so like you, it baffles me how people can sleep with one another and still be friends as if nothing ever happened. I think you are right in that it boils down to there still being a connection between those persons, or they don't have a high regard for sex and so that's why it's not a big deal to them that it happened between them in the past.

5 hours ago, Geraldine said:

But when you consider for example two christians who weren't believers in the past and have slept together ...then became christians and realise their mistakes and know that thay aren't meant for each other....as they are now brother and sister in Christ, they have been redeemed and they have forgiven each other...I believe that's a good example of showing their faith by remaining in good terms... I don't say that they have to be close friends...well, I agree that's inappropriate...But at least in good terms...especially if they go to the same church building for example...:unsure:

Actually this was the argument that everyone that knew about this situation gave me. In this story all four of us are Christians. Even though I know there has been forgiveness, I still could not get over the hurt of what happened and just knowing that they still wanted to be friends was more than I could handle. I would be able to handle them parting ways on good terms though, but just staying friends, I couldn't, and believe me, I did try. There was one time that I actually did see that girl in person that he had sex with, and I struggled very hard to keep back tears, and after that for the next few weeks, I couldn't even hug my boyfriend without thinking of what he had done with her. So I'm wondering if this is just one of those relationship situations in which this is more than I can bear, but then I do feel unsure if I am being Christian like enough and many people have already made me feel like an inadequate, unforgiving Christian because I cannot handle this scenario. :(

4 hours ago, HeWhoWaits said:

Usually on an early date (not the first date but not waiting until tenth date either) I'll say something along the lines of "How old were you when you lost your virginity?" kind of implying that I already have too, to weed out those who'll lie about it if they know I'm a virgin and I'm waiting.

I like your approach to finding out if someone is a virgin, HeWhoWaits! I might borrow that idea when I need to ask that question to future guys who are interested in me since I also want to be with a virgin. I've had that concern as well before and wondered how I could get a man to be truthful about his sexual status since there is no other way to conclusively know or prove it other than his word. Since I know that many women out there actually want a man with experience, I've thought about posing the question as if I'm one of those women so that I can encourage him to be open about his sexual experience if he gets the idea that I see it as a good thing. I thought about asking him something like, "How experienced are you sexually?" If a man is a virgin and is courageous and truthful enough to tell me that, then I know I can consider him as possible marriage material if he still says the truth while thinking that he's giving me an answer that I may not be looking for.

3 hours ago, redgrapes said:

The best "thing" to keep from an old relationship is not a friendship but the lessons learned so you can be a better partner to your future spouse. They should be the priority.

I agree! The person's future spouse should be the priority, not the friendship with the exes. This was something that my boyfriend and I struggled with for years after I found out that he was still friends with this girl he had sex with. He still wanted to cling so strongly to friendships because he didn't believe that ties should be cut simply because a mistake was made in the past that God forgave them for. He said that no matter how hurt I was, that it doesn't justify him letting go of two friends that remind me of his past and bring up images of sex. It made me feel so worthless and devalued, especially because he wanted me to be his wife. :( 

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Thank you very much beautiful Innocence ;) for having put names...I confess that it's really easier to understand now...

And my reaction after reading this is : OH MY GOSH !!!:(:wacko::blink: WHAT THE HECK !!!! :angry:  ABSOLUTELY AWFUL !!!!

I think that the attitude of Alexander is soooooooooooo disrespectful and soooo inappropriate!! Both towards Innocence and towards his best friend Charles !! 

Even if emotions weren't involved, just considering the basics of a human being acting toward another human being : this attitude of his reveals his character and I have to say that I'm deeply disgusted here :angry:

As christians, we are told by Jesus to do to others what we would like them to do to us... And that's not what he did... If he finds that it's normal to hide such an important thing as a sexual past partner....that really doesn't smell good at all :wacko:

How is it possible to trust someone who have acted like that again ? ! 

To tell the truth, I'm so sorry that you had to go through this, and even for me that is just so painful to hear !! I think that what @Invincible said is perfectly correct here :

6 hours ago, Invincible said:

I also have to wonder how someone could possibly not mention to their significant other that one of their close friends is a ex sex partner. Sexual past is a big deal, it's not something one just conveniently forget to bring up in the beginning. It makes me believe that she is trying to hide that fact from me. Both people should be completely transparent about any major past baggage. When you enter a romantic relationship, the other person has the right to know these things. If the girl I'm with doesn't bring it up on her own accord then it says to be she is either lying by omission or doesn't see sex as a big deal. Once again, I wouldn't want to be with a girl like that because she is either not trustworthy or we have fundamentally different values.

So to answer your question after that long-winded novel, I wouldn't ask her to end the friendship her friend. I would simply end the relationship with the girl.

 

1 hour ago, Innocence said:

Actually this was the argument that everyone that knew about this situation gave me. In this story all four of us are Christians. Even though I know there has been forgiveness, I still could not get over the hurt of what happened and just knowing that they still wanted to be friends was more than I could handle. I would be able to handle them parting ways on good terms though, but just staying friends, I couldn't, and believe me, I did try. There was one time that I actually did see that girl in person that he had sex with, and I struggled very hard to keep back tears, and after that for the next few weeks, I couldn't even hug my boyfriend without thinking of what he had done with her. So I'm wondering if this is just one of those relationship situations in which this is more than I can bear, but then I do feel unsure if I am being Christian like enough and many people have already made me feel like an inadequate, unforgiving Christian because I cannot handle this scenario. :(

Well, now that I have a better understanding of the story, I still maintain that they can be in good term spiritually, because that's the will of God. But this "spiritual " agreement has nothing to do with being close friend with her, and getting to the point to introduce her to his best friend , and to introduce her to you ! and all that without being honest about their sexual past involvement together ! :angry: NO ! 

I perfectly understand how you felt, and I would have felt exactly the same : that's unfair from him !

That's normal you couldn't get over it, and to be honest I think that it would have been the same for me...

Your reaction is perfectly normal, because, he hid the truth from you... And  your reaction is perfectly healthy, normal  and is not in contradiction with your christian values.

1 hour ago, Innocence said:

many people have already made me feel like an inadequate, unforgiving Christian because I cannot handle this scenario. :(

Don't listen to them !! It's not because you are a christian that you have to accept everything ! You have high ideals and values, and even if you forgive him, that doesn't mean that you have to stay in a romantic relationship with him, knowing he doesn't share the same standards as you (he has proved that by the way he acted).

Well, to sum up my point of view, I think that your reaction is really normal, there is nothing wrong with you and I'm shocked that he has acted like that without feeling uncomfortable....

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Hi Innocence. ^_^

I really like it when people respond to their own threads. It's very engaging. And yes, much easier comprehending the story with names, haha. I may have skimmed over that section when I first read your post after seeing the mental hoops I would have to jump through. :superwaiter:

I'm very sorry to read about your bad experience. :( As @Geraldine said, your emotional response to the situation was completely natural, blameless, and has no bearing on how great of a Christian you are. I'm sure those people meant well, but what they're saying isn't Biblical nor a reflection on you. It sounds like you were never unforgiving towards him in the slightest, quite the opposite.

If he wanted to keep the friendships so much, he shouldn't have chosen to escalate them to a sexual relationship but simply left it at the friendship level. His getting involved with them was what risked his friendship with those women, not your relationship with him. And if things were the other way around, I doubt he would tolerate your having guy friends of that nature.

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17 hours ago, Geraldine said:

Actually, I understand your point of view...

But when you consider for example two christians who weren't believers in the past and have slept together ...then became christians and realise their mistakes and know that thay aren't meant for each other....as they are now brother and sister in Christ, they have been redeemed and they have forgiven each other...I believe that's a good example of showing their faith by remaining in good terms... I don't say that they have to be close friends...well, I agree that's inappropriate...But at least in good terms...especially if they go to the same church building for example...:unsure:

Unfortunately, there were cases like that in a church I used to go to...:unsure:

Yes I think being in good terms would be the right way to go about it if they became believers. But I definitely agree that being close friends would be inappropriate especially when one of them gets into a relationship.

 

12 hours ago, Innocence said:

Amen to that Vince! I am comforted that you feel that way because I also view sex as such a deep physical and emotional act of oneness (I personally feel it's as if you are sharing your souls with one another), and so like you, it baffles me how people can sleep with one another and still be friends as if nothing ever happened. I think you are right in that it boils down to there still being a connection between those persons, or they don't have a high regard for sex and so that's why it's not a big deal to them that it happened between them in the past.

Yep, that is exactly my view as well. Sex bonds two people not just physically and emotionally, but spiritually as well. Contrary to the lies of society, it's never "just sex." There are real physical and spiritual consequences to it. There is even a very powerful chemical bond between the two. Being close friends with a former sex partner is playing with fire and just raises the likelihood of fanning those old feelings again.

 

12 hours ago, Innocence said:

Actually this was the argument that everyone that knew about this situation gave me. In this story all four of us are Christians. Even though I know there has been forgiveness, I still could not get over the hurt of what happened and just knowing that they still wanted to be friends was more than I could handle. I would be able to handle them parting ways on good terms though, but just staying friends, I couldn't, and believe me, I did try. There was one time that I actually did see that girl in person that he had sex with, and I struggled very hard to keep back tears, and after that for the next few weeks, I couldn't even hug my boyfriend without thinking of what he had done with her. So I'm wondering if this is just one of those relationship situations in which this is more than I can bear, but then I do feel unsure if I am being Christian like enough and many people have already made me feel like an inadequate, unforgiving Christian because I cannot handle this scenario. :(

Please do not mistake forgiveness with acceptance. As @Geraldine said, forgiveness doesn't mean that you have to be in a relationship with him. Even Jesus disassociates Himself from those who do not believe in Him (Matthew 7: 21-23). Don't let them shame you into thinking you are less of a Christian. Forgiveness doesn't equal tolerance nor does it mean you excuse wrongdoing. It just means you acknowledge what was done wrong yet you don't hold it against them anymore. You don't have to have any association or even like that individual as a person. It simply means you let do of any bitterness you have against that person. I would have reacted the same way if I was in your position. I would be deeply hurt that the person I cared about is close friends with a former sex partner. What he did was wrong and disrespectful to you and your relationship. I don't care how society justifies it, it is still wrong. Contrary to what many would say, there is such a thing as righteous jealousy. Even God said he is a jealous God who wants all of us to worship Him and no one else. In the same way, it is good to have a healthy sense of jealousy to want our significant other's heart all to ourselves and not have anyone threaten that. Just so long as it doesn't manifest in a controlling way.

 

11 hours ago, redgrapes said:

I'm very sorry to read about your bad experience. :( As @Geraldine said, your emotional response to the situation was completely natural, blameless, and has no bearing on how great of a Christian you are. I'm sure those people meant well, but what they're saying isn't Biblical nor a reflection on you. It sounds like you were never unforgiving towards him in the slightest, quite the opposite.

I agree :)

@Innocence, you did nothing wrong and you reacted in the proper and natural way. Stay true to your values and don't let anyone shame you for having them

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13 hours ago, Geraldine said:

I think that the attitude of Alexander is soooooooooooo disrespectful and soooo inappropriate!! Both towards Innocence and towards his best friend Charles !! 

Yes, I really felt bad for Charles when he first found out.  If I were him, I would have been deeply hurt that my best friend had tried to set me up with his ex because I would have seen it as him tossing me the leftovers of the meal he has already had.  In other words, because he didn't want the girl, then he just passes her on to me, without even telling me beforehand that he's already been with her! That's how I would have felt if I were Charles.

13 hours ago, Geraldine said:

But this "spiritual " agreement has nothing to do with being close friend with her, and getting to the point to introduce her to his best friend , and to introduce her to you ! and all that without being honest about their sexual past involvement together ! :angry: NO ! 

That was definitely one of the most painful parts of this whole nightmare situation :(. Charles and I were never told before we met Amanda that she was a former sex partner of Alexander's. I got to actually see and talk with Amanda through Skype a few times all the while thinking she was just a casual friend of Alexander's.  Once I found out who she really was, you can only imagine how betrayed and devastated I felt when Alexander admitted to me that he didn't want to tell me that she was a former sex partner:(.  Having already personally interacted with Amanda without knowing who she really was, was what began my emotional traumatization, which only got deeper and deeper the longer Alexander struggled to keep her in his life against my wishes:(.

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13 hours ago, redgrapes said:

I really like it when people respond to their own threads. It's very engaging.

Thank you for letting me know that! ^_^

13 hours ago, redgrapes said:

It sounds like you were never unforgiving towards him in the slightest, quite the opposite.

Yes, there are times when I think I did tolerate much more than others would if they were in this situation... Since the time that disastrous revelation occurred, I stayed with him for 3.5 years after that trying to cope with the trauma from the situation because I really wanted to be successful in getting rid of the images, reminders, and dreams that I became plagued with as a result. I gave him chance after chance to be truthful about his sexual past after this occurrence, but he broke my trust regarding this area two more times many months later:(.

13 hours ago, redgrapes said:

And if things were the other way around, I doubt he would tolerate your having guy friends of that nature.

That is actually the surprising part! I've used that very same scenario during the arguments we've had over this situation, and Alexander has said that if I ever had sex with any of my exes, he would be totally fine if they were still friends in my life:huh:!  Matter of fact, he actually ENCOURAGES me to stay in touch with my other ex!  So that basically takes away my platform of argument from that angle because he's fine if I had exes in my life still as friends... I guess since that's how he feels, it's no wonder he thinks it's not a big deal to still stay friends with his exes that he had sex with and instead thinks that I'm the one having the problem.   

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@Geraldine, @redgrapes, and @Invincible 

Thank you all SO VERY MUCH for your encouragement in saying that I reacted to this situation in a perfectly normal way, and that my response has nothing to do with being less Christian-like. Vince, I like what you said in your last post about righteous jealousy. I believe I experienced that with Alexander which explains why I wanted all of his sex partners out of his life if they weren't already because I wanted to know that there would be no reminders of past experiences that he's had that would take away from us being able to focus on one another completely.

Here is why I believe I was criticized so much for not being able to overcome the situation. Charles was eventually able to get over what happened between Alexander and Amanda, and he was able to carry on his relationship with Amanda AND still maintain his best friend status with Alexander.  So here is a virgin that was able to cope with what happened, and as a result, I got compared to Charles :(. Alexander and all of his other friends (including my best female friend) said that if Charles can overcome it and express that Christ-like acceptance, then I can overcome it and also express that Christ-like acceptance. Alexander would constantly say that because Charles got over it, and I wasn't, that I was CHOOSING to stay hurt over the matter! As if I could "choose" to have my feelings hurt or not... I can't tell you how deeply that word cut into me because he just refused to see how the hurt is something I couldn't control:(.  I told him repeatedly how I wanted the images, reminders, and bad dreams of what he and Amanda did to go away just as much as he wanted that for me, but I just didn't know how to do that:(.  Many times he would just say that I have to "deal" with it and "choose" not to let it hurt me. And every time he pointed to Charles as the example to follow, that just made me feel even worse as a Christian in being able to forgive and forget. So that is why I think so many people were against me in how I handled things. :(

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38 minutes ago, Innocence said:

That was definitely one of the most painful parts of this whole nightmare situation :(. Charles and I were never told before we met Amanda that she was a former sex partner of Alexander's. I got to actually see and talk with Amanda through Skype a few times all the while thinking she was just a casual friend of Alexander's.  Once I found out who she really was, you can only imagine how betrayed and devastated I felt when Alexander admitted to me that he didn't want to tell me that she was a former sex partner:(.  Having already personally interacted with Amanda without knowing who she really was, was what began my emotional traumatization, which only got deeper and deeper the longer Alexander struggled to keep her in his life against my wishes:(.

Oh my gosh...:(:(:unsure:

This is so painful to hear....I have no words...I feel powerless in front of such a situation...

I really feel you and that's awful.... what he did was just unacceptable and he didn't respect you and didn't love you either (according to the definition of love in the Bible). The love of God doesn't act like that. Never.

How can you not be traumatized after such an experience?... That is so understandable.... I'm praying for you

 

 

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23 minutes ago, Innocence said:

That is actually the surprising part! I've used that very same scenario during the arguments we've had over this situation, and Alexander has said that if I ever had sex with any of my exes, he would be totally fine if they were still friends in my life:huh:!  Matter of fact, he actually ENCOURAGES me to stay in touch with my other ex!  So that basically takes away my platform of argument from that angle because he's fine if I had exes in my life still as friends... I guess since that's how he feels, it's no wonder he thinks it's not a big deal to still stay friends with his exes that he had sex with and instead thinks that I'm the one having the problem.   

:angry::angry:

I think that' is shocking and that reveals the kind of low standard he has...

The thing is when a man truly loves a woman, he wants her all for himself, and has this healthy jealousy that @Invincible has told about...He would never encourage her to go and see another man, especially if he is an ex!:wacko:

To tell the truth, this attitude of his, provokes a repulsion in me : it's as if he's acting like a pimp and see you as a prostitute. Emotionally speaking.

I'm sorry if my words are too strong but this is really how I feel and exactly how I would feel if he had acted like that with me : I would have felt used, dirty, and as a prostitute...

I think that when a man finds a diamond, he knows it's a precious jewel and he doesn't want to expose it, he wants to protect it...

So only with this reasonment of his, it would be a red flag for me..

You have all my empathy here ....

What he has done, upsets me...

 

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1 hour ago, Innocence said:

That was definitely one of the most painful parts of this whole nightmare situation :(. Charles and I were never told before we met Amanda that she was a former sex partner of Alexander's. I got to actually see and talk with Amanda through Skype a few times all the while thinking she was just a casual friend of Alexander's.  Once I found out who she really was, you can only imagine how betrayed and devastated I felt when Alexander admitted to me that he didn't want to tell me that she was a former sex partner:(.  Having already personally interacted with Amanda without knowing who she really was, was what began my emotional traumatization, which only got deeper and deeper the longer Alexander struggled to keep her in his life against my wishes:(.

So he did lie to you. He was essentially living in secrecy and didn't tell you the truth because he knew you'd be upset. But he shouldn't be close friends with her in the first place. That is emotional cheating as far as I'm concerned. Because he shared a really important secret that affects your relationship with someone else. 

 

1 hour ago, Innocence said:

That is actually the surprising part! I've used that very same scenario during the arguments we've had over this situation, and Alexander has said that if I ever had sex with any of my exes, he would be totally fine if they were still friends in my life:huh:!  Matter of fact, he actually ENCOURAGES me to stay in touch with my other ex!  So that basically takes away my platform of argument from that angle because he's fine if I had exes in my life still as friends... I guess since that's how he feels, it's no wonder he thinks it's not a big deal to still stay friends with his exes that he had sex with and instead thinks that I'm the one having the problem.   

If he actually encourages you to do the opposite if the roles were reversed then that alone shows you both have fundamentally incompatible views. In fact, his views are incompatible with a healthy relationship, period. To maintain close ties with someone you slept with is blatantly disrespectful by any decent standard. By doing that, he is subjecting you, his significant other, the pain of having to be reminded of the fact she knew him more intimately than you ever did. That is sick and ridiculously selfish.

 

1 hour ago, Innocence said:

Here is why I believe I was criticized so much for not being able to overcome the situation. Charles was eventually able to get over what happened between Alexander and Amanda, and he was able to carry on his relationship with Amanda AND still maintain his best friend status with Alexander.  So here is a virgin that was able to cope with what happened, and as a result, I got compared to Charles :(. Alexander and all of his other friends (including my best female friend) said that if Charles can overcome it and express that Christ-like acceptance, then I can overcome it and also express that Christ-like acceptance. Alexander would constantly say that because Charles got over it, and I wasn't, that I was CHOOSING to stay hurt over the matter! As if I could "choose" to have my feelings hurt or not... I can't tell you how deeply that word cut into me because he just refused to see how the hurt is something I couldn't control:(.  I told him repeatedly how I wanted the images, reminders, and bad dreams of what he and Amanda did to go away just as much as he wanted that for me, but I just didn't know how to do that:(.  Many times he would just say that I have to "deal" with it and "choose" not to let it hurt me. And every time he pointed to Charles as the example to follow, that just made me feel even worse as a Christian in being able to forgive and forget. So that is why I think so many people were against me in how I handled things. :(

Just when you think he couldn't get any worse, he somehow blows out your expectations in the worst way. Not only did he completely dismiss your concerns, but he is comparing you with someone else. That is emotional abuse to the core. Basically he is belittling you by insinuating you are not good enough by using someone else as a standard you "fall short" of in his eyes. 

 

1 hour ago, Geraldine said:

I think that when a man finds a diamond, he knows it's a precious jewel and he doesn't want to expose it, he wants to protect it...

So only with this reasonment of his, it would be a red flag for me..

I agree wholeheartedly, @Geraldine. There is no other way to say this. But he simply doesn't care about you, not one bit. Someone who genuinely loves and cares about you wouldn't even dream of saying these horrible things to you. A truly good man would do anything to protect your heart and your relationship. He would never dream of making you feel insecure of his commitment to you in any shape or form.

@Innocence, please for love of all that is good and holy, leave him. He's a lying and a manipulative cheater. You deserve so much better than this scumbag.

 

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I completely agree with everything that @Geraldine and @Invincible said here. They offered excellent insight as always. :) 

I don't see it as an issue of forgiveness, but of finding the right spouse for you. The man described as Alexander is not husband material presently. As soon as that fact has been acknowledged there is no point continuing the relationship because any form of dating should have the goal of marriage. It would be in the best interest of both parties, if you cannot imagine happily being wed, to go separate ways.

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 Innocence, did you ever say, is this an ongoing relationship or is this something from your past? Is this your current boyfriend?

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On 5/10/2017 at 4:59 AM, Geraldine said:

The thing is when a man truly loves a woman, he wants her all for himself, and has this healthy jealousy that @Invincible has told about...He would never encourage her to go and see another man, especially if he is an ex!:wacko:

Yes! That's what I would think, too!  One thing Alexander has told me before, is that he hates it when he sees other couples in which the man is so possessive of his girlfriend that he doesn't want her talking to ANY man and basically smothers her freedom in a controlling sort of way. So I think in an effort to avoid being labeled as that kind of man, he's taken it really far in the other direction to where he expects his girl to have the freedom to talk and hang out with whomever she wants, and expects that same kind of freedom in return for himself. Both extremes are undesirable, in my opinion, and so I agree that a healthy jealousy right in the middle is ideal... one in which both people have the freedom to talk to members of the opposite sex as friends, but also one in which both people are jealous of exes and anyone who is romantically interested in them. In that case, I think talking to exes and spouses of the exes should be nonexistent.

On 5/10/2017 at 4:59 AM, Geraldine said:

To tell the truth, this attitude of his, provokes a repulsion in me : it's as if he's acting like a pimp and see you as a prostitute. Emotionally speaking.

I'm sorry if my words are too strong but this is really how I feel and exactly how I would feel if he had acted like that with me : I would have felt used, dirty, and as a prostitute...

I think that when a man finds a diamond, he knows it's a precious jewel and he doesn't want to expose it, he wants to protect it...

I actually had a boyfriend before Alexander who went even a step further than this.  He once told me that I could have sex with other men as long as it was "meaningless sex" (for him, that meant sex without any emotional investment) and he wouldn't care:angry:. I should have slapped him after saying that. Yes, stuff like this and also what Alexander has said have definitely made me feel so devalued and unimportant. I felt that with both of these boyfriends, the precious gift of my virginity that I would be saving for them if they became my husband, would not even be cherished.  As a result, (even though I still have Biblical reasons for saving my virginity) I have wondered why I should even save my virginity for my husband if he's not even going to value the precious gift I would be offering to him:(. It's just sad to me that all the boyfriends I've ever had and all men I've gone on dates with have just not even cared about the jewel that I'm saving for that special one:(.

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On 5/10/2017 at 6:40 AM, Invincible said:

If he actually encourages you to do the opposite if the roles were reversed then that alone shows you both have fundamentally incompatible views. In fact, his views are incompatible with a healthy relationship, period. To maintain close ties with someone you slept with is blatantly disrespectful by any decent standard. By doing that, he is subjecting you, his significant other, the pain of having to be reminded of the fact she knew him more intimately than you ever did. That is sick and ridiculously selfish.

I am so glad you said that. He has made me feel that all this time, I'm the one with the unhealthy feelings because I want Amanda and Charles (because Charles and Amanda eventually got married... and that's another very sad story because of how it eventually ended up in divorce from something I heard that Amanda did, but I digress) out of Alexander's life.

Believe me, the reminders sure were there. I really feel like an emotional trauma victim because of this relationship because anything associated with Amanda that would come up in my everyday life would remind me of her. I also have had many bad dreams about her and Alexander and even Charles, too, and some of those dreams have made me wake up with unsettled feelings and tears in my eyes:(. I've also expressed the "avoidance" behaviors that PTSD sufferers have in which I have avoided actions and places that have images/traumas attached to them. So yeah, it was bad.

On 5/10/2017 at 6:40 AM, Invincible said:

Just when you think he couldn't get any worse, he somehow blows out your expectations in the worst way. Not only did he completely dismiss your concerns, but he is comparing you with someone else. That is emotional abuse to the core. Basically he is belittling you by insinuating you are not good enough by using someone else as a standard you "fall short" of in his eyes. 

Hmmm... I never thought of it that way... I guess in my innocence and inexperience with guys, I didn't think it was emotional abuse, but I guess it's always harder to see that when you're directly involved in the situation and not seeing from an outside perspective.  His comparing might have been one of the subconscious reasons I stayed with him for so long... because I wanted to try to have the strength that Charles had to be okay about what happened in the past and put it behind me and display that Christ like behavior of remembering the sins no more.

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On 5/10/2017 at 6:40 AM, Invincible said:

please for love of all that is good and holy, leave him. He's a lying and a manipulative cheater. You deserve so much better than this scumbag.

 

13 hours ago, redgrapes said:

I don't see it as an issue of forgiveness, but of finding the right spouse for you. The man described as Alexander is not husband material presently. As soon as that fact has been acknowledged there is no point continuing the relationship because any form of dating should have the goal of marriage. It would be in the best interest of both parties, if you cannot imagine happily being wed, to go separate ways.

 

5 hours ago, HeWhoWaits said:

Innocence, did you ever say, is this an ongoing relationship or is this something from your past? Is this your current boyfriend?

Yes, I have left Alexander. I broke up with him in April, so the breakup is relatively recent. We were together for a little over 4.5 years, but this problem that I am telling you about came up about a year after us knowing each other, so I've been dealing with this sexual past situation for 3.5 years.

 

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6 hours ago, Innocence said:

I actually had a boyfriend before Alexander who went even a step further than this.  He once told me that I could have sex with other men as long as it was "meaningless sex" (for him, that meant sex without any emotional investment) and he wouldn't care:angry:. I should have slapped him after saying that. 

That is honestly the dumbest thing I've ever heard. At least the second or the third dumbest, but still. From what I understand, sex is much more emotional for women than men as a general rule. Telling a woman not to be emotionally invested during sex is like telling a man not to get aroused with a naked woman in front of him. It's going to happen because it's natural. But that's beside the point. There is absolutely no sense of exclusivity if you can just sleep with whoever you want. You might as well not even consider yourself in a relationship if there are no boundaries.

 

6 hours ago, Innocence said:

Yes, stuff like this and also what Alexander has said have definitely made me feel so devalued and unimportant. I felt that with both of these boyfriends, the precious gift of my virginity that I would be saving for them if they became my husband, would not even be cherished.  As a result, (even though I still have Biblical reasons for saving my virginity) I have wondered why I should even save my virginity for my husband if he's not even going to value the precious gift I would be offering to him:(. It's just sad to me that all the boyfriends I've ever had and all men I've gone on dates with have just not even cared about the jewel that I'm saving for that special one:(.

This is exactly the reason I won't date someone who is simply waiting because I asked her to. I want her to have chosen that path for herself. Because I want someone who truly understands the value of waiting and fully appreciates the fact that I waited for her. Waiting is a big sacrifice, especially since fighting my sexual urges is a daily battle. Some days the urges are just downright torturous :( I don't want to be with someone who has at best a neutral view and at worst think that me waiting was unnecessary or even stupid. The same thing is true for you. You waiting for your future husband is a very honorable and sacrificing thing. The right man will fully recognize your sacrifice and fully appreciate the precious gift that it is.

 

7 hours ago, Innocence said:

Believe me, the reminders sure were there. I really feel like an emotional trauma victim because of this relationship because anything associated with Amanda that would come up in my everyday life would remind me of her. I also have had many bad dreams about her and Alexander and even Charles, too, and some of those dreams have made me wake up with unsettled feelings and tears in my eyes:(. I've also expressed the "avoidance" behaviors that PTSD sufferers have in which I have avoided actions and places that have images/traumas attached to them. So yeah, it was bad.

I have felt similar things like that. I've never been in a relationship before, but I had painful images in my head over girls I've been really interested in being with other guys they were interested in. It sucks to have a vivid imagination and it often made me feel inadequate or not good enough. So I get where you're coming from. Maybe not nearly to the degree you felt because you were actually in relationship with this guy. But nevertheless those strong emotions where there. I am sorry you had to go through that. Your ex-bf is a real jerk to put you through that :(

 

7 hours ago, Innocence said:

Hmmm... I never thought of it that way... I guess in my innocence and inexperience with guys, I didn't think it was emotional abuse, but I guess it's always harder to see that when you're directly involved in the situation and not seeing from an outside perspective.  His comparing might have been one of the subconscious reasons I stayed with him for so long... because I wanted to try to have the strength that Charles had to be okay about what happened in the past and put it behind me and display that Christ like behavior of remembering the sins no more.

Well, in my parent's culture it is common for parents to compare their kids negatively with other people's kids. They often say things like, "Look at Bob's kids, they get all straight A's while all you get are B's." So I've grown to have a particular distaste for being compared to others. It's damaging to a person's self esteem and it sends the message that I'm not good enough. Comparisons should have absolutely no place in a loving relationship. No one should ever be made to feel as if they are not good enough. Here's how I look at it. When you're with the wrong person, you will never be good enough for him no matter what you do. But with the right guy, you will be everything he prayed for just for being yourself.

 

7 hours ago, Innocence said:

Yes, I have left Alexander. I broke up with him in April, so the breakup is relatively recent.

Good for you. You did the right thing. I hope you have a speedy recovery from the breakup.

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Well said, Vince! I couldn't have expressed it any better myself. I agree with everything you wrote.

Lol! Well now you've gotten me curious about the other very dumb things you've heard :lol:

Well anyway, I really do thank you for your words and your encouragement :). All of the comments on this thread so far have definitely helped lift my spirits and have given me some peace about the whole situation :)

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:) Once again, I'm unlike almost everyone.

So, I don't mind who they're friends with...if certain things are considered. I would not do it if I were RIGHT after that person. In that case, their breakup is too fresh and I'd feel like a rebound, or placeholder. If it had been a while and they'd simply realized that they didn't work as a couple, then I don't think I'd mind. I'd only mind if I started to see signs that he wasn't over her, and if I saw signs that she wasn't over him I'd let him know...and go from that. If they are friends, after having such an intimate relationship, I'd be more inclined to think that the maturity of the friendship that they started with BEFOREHAND was a solid foundation and that it must really not have worked if that was the case, if they could still be friends and have no intimate feelings anymore.

Don't get me wrong...I believe sex is very special, and I only want to share that with one man. I have just had different experiences that other people and have a LOT of different reasons I'm waiting. For me, the most important thing is that he respects my decision and that his love for me is axiomatic. His past doesn't mean as much to me as who he is and who he wants to be. His faith, honesty, and integrity are what I look at.

That being said, in THIS situation IN PARTICULAR...NO! No. No. No. Not because they are friends....but because HE LIED. He didn't tell the whole story to begin with. I can accept a lot of things...as I'm sure anyone who knows me here already knows. Not lying. No. I am a strange one in that I want to know as much detail about their history as possible, anyway, that if he left out such an important detail as being good friends with an ex that he'd slept with that would absolutely be it.

However, every person has their own boundaries, and if not being able to deal with them being friends with someone they've slept with (as I'm sure a lot of people are not) then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, either. Everyone should follow their own hearts.

I hope that you are doing better now. I, just a few months ago (3 exactly today), had my heart broken for the first time EVER, and I've only just started to be really ok. Thinking I might actually want to find love again...someday.

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Well, beautiful @Innocence, this story is so painful to hear....really awful...

We really can be greatful for the end of this relationship with him...Because things could have been worse and that's such a great joy that you didn't marry him! Thank God for that!

I fully agree with everything @Invincible said... And Invincible had mentionned something that caught my attention...

He had said that this is "emotional abuse to the core":

On 10/05/2017 at 0:40 PM, Invincible said:

Not only did he completely dismiss your concerns, but he is comparing you with someone else. That is emotional abuse to the core. Basically he is belittling you by insinuating you are not good enough by using someone else as a standard you "fall short" of in his eyes. 

THIS IS SO TRUE!!!!!

And this is one of the main lessons you have to memorise from this awful and painful experience : you were in an emotionnal abusive relationship. It was VERY SUBTLE in the beginning, but it was there nevertheless: it was psychological and emotional abuse.

A healthy person will never treat you like that. NEVER.

And emotional abusers are attracted to a particular type of personality : usually they are attracted to smart, generous, loyal, kind, honest, strong people (as yourself ^_^;)). But all those qualities are also served with a lack of self esteem sometimes and/or naivety (you can tell me if I'm wrong here, but I presume that I'm right).

And the goal of those toxic people is simply to destroy psychologically and emotionally their "prey". When you mentionned the terms : "Traumatised, bad dreams  images and so on"... Those are the logical consequences of his manipulative behaviour towards you. That was exactly the results he was seeking...Thank God, you have been spared and protected even if you were in deep pain.

I would suggest that you really take time to heal fully before entering a new romantic relationship. It's not a coincidence that you have attracted a man like that. And it's important to understand why in order to not attract again someone like him in the future. And that's really very possible.

Below, I share a link regarding an article about toxic relationships. I hope it will help you and also other people who need this.

You're a beautiful person with many qualities and you can trust God and His timing to provide for you for every area in your life. Stay strong my sister ;)

My prayers are with you.

http://shrink4men.com/2015/12/22/relationship-stages-with-a-narcissist-or-borderline-and-triangulation/

Edit:  I absolutely hate gross words...unfortunately I think there are some gross words in this article(it was not written by me :P) So please, ignore the gross words and take advantage of the good things of this article. Stay blessed ;)

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I'll admit, I've mostly just skimmed this since there's a lot to catch up on. For the most part a lot of the details I've kinda moved past myself anyway. I tend to see the world in a very black and white way, and can be rather frank and "heartless" on certain issues, of which waiting for marriage will certainly be one. It's lead to me being called a judgmental..... jerk... but I've found most of the people who comment never really try to listen, and I try my best to explain things in such a way that they can understand my entire thought process.

Anyway, so, I've really come to the conclusion that dating a girl who isn't a virgin is a deal-breaker to me. There's been several occasions where I've not wanted it to be a deal-breaker, and while I can be ice-cold on that issue, I'll admit it's more difficult to hold that stance when said theoretical person actually has a name. Also, I should note, this is coming off of being incredibly attached to someone who did not meet this requirement. Not a relationship, just someone I fell for after a long time of them actually caring about me- something that has been really rare over the past decade. We'll call her Sarah (which, if that's not clear enough, isn't her name).

Sarah falls into the category of "I lost my virginity when I was young; I was depressed to the point of being suicidal and gave into pressure from my boyfriend at the time and I deeply regret this and now insist on waiting." Now, I care deeply about Sarah, and I certainly want the best for her. I sure wish things worked out RIGHT NOW because of pain I'm enduring RIGHT NOW, and I certainly wish we were still on speaking terms, but overall, the friendship became toxic and was at the point of relationship or nothing. And the reality is, it needs to be nothing.

There's been others before like Sarah, and most of that occurred at a time when I had concluded *whelp* I failed. I tried to find a relationship at a young age because I anticipated there being an age where I'd no longer meet any girls who are waiting, and now I'm at that point. It's kind of a lie, but the potential dating pool is certainly a lot smaller now. So I've had to on a few occasions attempt to reconcile what it would mean to marry a woman who hadn't waited- that ultimately, sex would not be an experience exclusively between myself and my wife. I've tried to do it, and I can't. And that's okay.

See, just like me belonging to the group of people out there who are waiting, there's also people in the group who didn't and regret it. And perhaps this isn't even that big of an issue to Sarah and others like her, but even if it is, there's people out there who can be a good spouse to her who have shared a similar story. But what Sarah can never share, is my story. She cannot understand the loneliness I've endured, and she cannot value what I've done both for my future significant other, but also because that's what I deemed the moral thing to do. She can try, but she cannot value it as much as someone who has endured what I have, who has been alone, who has felt hopeless, who has felt like her future husband won't really appreciate that she did the right thing (or worse, she doesn't compromise and stays alone because she doesn't find anyone). 

At the end of the day, if I was to be in a relationship with a girl who hadn't waited, I'm making it that much more difficult for a girl who has to find a husband who has. Just as any girl who accepts being with a guy who hasn't waited makes it more difficult for me, and guys like me, to find a girl who has waited. 

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