Naturally

Virgin Therapists: Home Sweet Hell

46 posts in this topic

13 hours ago, Dave1985 said:

The astronomical divorce rate, as far as I am concerned can be 100% attributed to predatory females, a system that is biased in favor of the wife, and divorce courts that are biased in favor of the women.

So, I really didn't want to get into this conversation too much. For the most part I was just watching to see how everyone thinks. I was wondering if you could elaborate on this part? The way I'm reading most of what you wrote, primarily this thought, is that every divorce that has occurred is the fault of the woman? Whether she has filed for it, or not?

Just looking for clarification on this thought.

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11 hours ago, Invincible said:

Seriously, many women don't realize how much power and influence she has over their husbands.

This terrifies me that you are so openly giving what little secrets we have left to the dark side!!!!!!!!! You're going to completely disrupt the balance of power by telling them this... Please, delete,delete,delete,delete,delete!  (haha jk...not serious)

11 hours ago, Invincible said:

If you settle for a guy you don't actually love, you will come to unfairly resent him later on for things that aren't his fault.

I definitely see what you’re saying and agree. Not that this really makes a difference but I actually don’t think many of them resent/will resent their husbands. They knew from the beginning they were just using them and have different expectations. All they cared about was getting what they wanted. When he no longer serves their purpose, they don’t resent them, they simply find another pawn.

I was young and totally naïve when hearing this stuff for the first time and it freaked me out. Sadly, this is when I realized the difference b\w settling and compromising lol

What's scary are the people that get settled for and have no idea. If that happened to me and I found out, wow I would be so mad and super resentful for so many reasons. Not to be too cynical here but that is a frustrating thing about dating…being aware that men/women can show/tell you everything you want, so they can get what they want.

I thank God for that learning experience because I’ve been able to weed out girls that were the exact same as my coworkers….Ones that are on the husband hunt and seem to care more about what they want, than the man….Men/women that do this seem to view the other person as an accessory.

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1 hour ago, PhotoGirl said:

So, I really didn't want to get into this conversation too much. For the most part I was just watching to see how everyone thinks. I was wondering if you could elaborate on this part? The way I'm reading most of what you wrote, primarily this thought, is that every divorce that has occurred is the fault of the woman? Whether she has filed for it, or not?

Just looking for clarification on this thought.

I was speaking in a bit of a hyperbole. The divorce rate in this country used to be negligible. But when the system got rearranged to the point where:

1) Women are the primary ones to benefit from marriage, even if they don't like their husband.

2) Women can file for "no fault" divorce with no proof of any wrongdoing on the husband's part.

3) Women get preferential treatment in divorce courts that favor them.

You have completely eliminated any benefit for the men to get married, and completely eliminated any disadvantage for the woman to marry (or divorce). It is unnaturally lopsided.

I may have been speaking in a hyperbole, but without the radical changes to the divorce courts in the 1960s, you'd never get the divorce rate to jump from its old negligible rate to where it is today.

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On 3/4/2017 at 7:16 PM, Naturally said:

Would you liken it to a husband and wife who can't speak to each other for a year but can write notes and communicate through text? For a wife, not being able to communicate verbally with her husband and receive verbal responses from him for one year would be, for me, as you describe sex, possibly durable but excruciatingly difficult - and not just difficult logistically but emotionally, I would hurt in my heart.

Yes, you could liken it to that. Very valid point. You/a wife would have every reason to be hurt at that. Among other things, it's degrading.

It reminds me of a saying. I'm paraphrasing but: For a husband, when everything is right inside the bedroom, everything will be right outside the bedroom. For a wife, when everything is right outside the bedroom, everything will be right inside the bedroom.

It's over simplifying but you get the point. If Eva had a better attitude towards sex (intercourse and/or other things) and prioritized it more , I like to think Zac's communication would improve (notice that i focused on attitude and priority. It's one thing to be unable to have sex and it's another thing to not even care that you can't). Likewise, If Zac had better communication, I like to think Eva's attitude towards sex would improve.

The problem is that it's a catch 22. One of them has to attempt to break the cycle, or they can try together. Yes, it's vulnerable, humbling, and scary. However,  it's the only way to stop the seeds of bitterness from growing.

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On 3/7/2017 at 5:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

In general, men primarily interpret love as respect. In polls, husbands would rather have their wives respect them than love them. [This can be hard for women to understand] The opposite is true for women

Yup, I'm struggling to separate the two. What's the difference? - you can't have love without respect. And I doubt women would feel good being called a "selfish idiot" either.

Some examples, perhaps?

Having your spouse speak over you, call you names, not ask or consider your opinion, belittle you in public, have fun at your expense amongst his friends - I feel all these as disrespectful which if done enough times can translate into not being loving.

On 3/7/2017 at 5:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

I'd say Zac should look at the finances, if he actually needs his current job then he can bring that to her and state that rather than change jobs and risk not being able to live with the necessary change in lifestyle they can try pre-adapting. If she is not open or able to adapt then no point in changing jobs anyway.

Good point. And Zac should also ask for Eva's idea of a solution in light of these necessary compromises that way she feels her opinion is appreciated and it also holds her accountable for whatever changes Zac makes i.e. Eva won't be able to say "You took on a job that makes too little money and now it's harder financially on me"

On 3/7/2017 at 5:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Is he making her feel sexy in/about her new role as mother to their children? To me a nurturing, loving dedicated mother is super sexy and feminine and I would be communicating that to my wife. 

I'd like to know from married mothers who consider themselves to have successful marriages, how they consolidated the two. From a woman's perspective, I completely understand how a woman would see the role of "wife" and "mother" on opposite ends of the spectrum. Generally speaking, I think as soon as a woman becomes a mother, now that she's experienced the consequences of sex and the power and seriousness of it, she's no longer able (doesn't want to?) to lose herself in the playfulness and wildness of it as she did prior to motherhood. Much alike some husbands who have a Madonna-Whore complex towards the mother of his children, In a mother's mind she must be a pillar of moral responsibility, respectability, and purity of mind and she can't consolidate this with being a sexually active woman. (I'm not satisfied with this explanation but I will figure out a way to articulate it better in the future)

On 3/7/2017 at 5:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

One on one counselling can be worthwhile. The therapist is in danger of getting a biased account but it could still be worth it. Even if he sends a list of question etc to Zac which he can then write/record while he is traveling around the place. How one spouse acts can have a big influence on the other. 

True, but I suspect Eva sees this as a problem with Zac and if he just made some changes then she'll be fine. A person who doesn't view themselves to have a problem is less likely to procure help for it, especially by themselves.

On 3/7/2017 at 5:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Exclusively?! Adult breastfeeding exists...http://forums.waitingtillmarriage.org/topic/4337-adult-nursingerotic-lactation/ . Sure it would be different. But wives can breastfeed their husbands, they can also discuss their deep fears, find a deep sense of knowing and acceptance in the marital relationship that might not be in the parent-child relationship. You have sex with your husband, you are the most vulnerable with your husband, he knows your flaws, shortcomings etc far more than your children. But again, Zac could actively try and get a bit more involved in that bond. Not just a mother to child but a parent couple to child bond. I'm just picturing them lying up against the bedhead/pillows, both topless, Zac's arm around Eva as she breastfeeds their baby and just basking in the beautiful nurturing act of breastfeeding and maybe stroking the babies head and kissing his wife now and again. Or just standing side by side with arms around each other watching their babies sleep.....

That is a nice image but when I said "exclusive" I meant in terms of feeding habits not relationship exclusivity. WHO recommends the exclusive breastfeeding of an infant for the first 6 months of life in place of any formula or milk-substitute. This strengthens the bond between mum and baby as baby is even more dependent on the mother and also experiences greater closeness than a bottle-fed infant.

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7 minutes ago, Naturally said:

Yup, I'm struggling to separate the two. What's the difference? - you can't have love without respect. And I doubt women would feel good being called a "selfish idiot" either.

Some examples, perhaps?

Having your spouse speak over you, call you names, not ask or consider your opinion, belittle you in public, have fun at your expense amongst his friends - I feel all these as disrespectful which if done enough times can translate into not being loving.

Actually you can love someone without respecting them. Here's the difference. Love is an action and respect is an attitude. Love is when you take care of someone, protect them, tend to their needs. Respect means you admire someone for their talents, character or abilities and as a result hold them in high esteem.

Here's an example that might help you understand. A woman can love her husband  for the good man he is in that she wants the best for him and take care of his needs. But her husband may be a pushover and lacks any backbone when it comes to standing up for himself when in conflict with her or others. So while she may stay committed to loving him as part of the marriage, she finds it hard to respect him because he acts like a coward. I think that most women wouldn't respect a man who lacked courage.

Another example is that you can love your child because you are their parent so you care for them. But if they are lazy, have no drive or even are involved with drugs or illegal activity, then you cannot respect them for what they are doing.

Yes love and respect are related but ultimately separate things. The real issue is how do you deal with your lack of respect in a respectful way if that makes sense. It's very common in our society for women to trash their husbands for all his shortcomings while in public or with her girl friends. That is a very wrong and disrespectful way to address his mistakes. You do not air out your spouse's dirty laundry and ruin his reputation. You address it by confronting your spouse privately and encouraging him to strive to be better in a loving way.

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On 3/7/2017 at 5:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Making him feel inadequate is can be a form of disrespect. If respect is to man, as love is to woman, can you see how it might influence the bedroom too?

True. A woman who doesn't feel loved outside the bedroom can't feel loved inside the bedroom, and any attempt by the husband for sex will make her feel used and cause her to deeply resent him.

On 3/8/2017 at 0:12 PM, StarGate SG1 said:

She could reject him for the insecurities he worries about. IMO, I think this is a big reason why these men want a woman with the fewest number of sexual partners. They worry that her other partners might not have the things they are insecure about.

So this could be why even the most salacious lothario desires a virgin. Nope, still not empathetic to their hypocrisy.

22 hours ago, Dave1985 said:
On 3/7/2017 at 5:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

:lol: Where is @Dave1985 when you need him?

 

I'm right here! Those "princess" women are a nuisance to society. :P

lol

22 hours ago, Dave1985 said:

Did I mention that the women who marry for convenience aren't attracted to their husbands, and this is why we have sexless marriages,

The cause of sexless marriages is much more multifactorial. In this scenario alone we've entertained the idea that a wife is incapable of consolidating wife and mother. There's also the biologically rational reason that a woman loses her libido after giving birth, a husband might put little effort into pursuing his wife after marriage, Madonna-Whore complex etc. There are so many reasons for a sexless marriage and some of them are caused by husbands.

22 hours ago, Dave1985 said:

If they are OK with the thought of premarital sex, there is literally no benefit whatsoever to being married.

You might have a point here. The only reason I can see this type of man marrying a woman is if he wishes to have children. In some countries, I think US being one of them (I might be wrong), the biological father of a child doesn't have full parental responsibility of the child if he’s not married to the child’s mother or if he was not married to the child’s mother at the time of the child’s conception, birth or any time between the child’s conception and birth. Whereas the biological mother of a child has full parental responsibility of the child, whether she’s married or unmarried.

19 hours ago, Invincible said:

Oh gosh, I hate it when people do this. As @Naturally pointed out, not only are these women using these men for their own selfish ends, they are also selling themselves short by settling. Look, I get it. Many women feel their biological clock ticking. But for the good of humanity, do not let that mess with your heads. No one should settle and no one deserves to be settled for. If you settle for a guy you don't actually love, you will come to unfairly resent him later on for things that aren't his fault. The short term benefits is not worth the life of misery. This is actually one of my biggest fears of getting in relationships. I never ever want a women to settle for me. I will constantly be on the look out for red flags. If I ever got the sense she was settling, I'm bailing. I didn't wait all these years to be stuck marrying a woman who doesn't truly love me.

These days I think fewer women are consciously choosing to settle but rather unintentionally getting pregnant in long-term relationships and decide to get married since they've been living together for a long time anyway.

19 hours ago, Invincible said:

Yes sex can be quite a vulnerable experience for a man. Why? Because every decent man has at some point or another contemplated whether he will be good enough to satisfy his wife in bed. If she isn't enjoying it or not enjoying it as much as with a previous man, then that could be a huge blow to a man's confidence. With men, it's easy to get us aroused and to orgasm. But with women it's a much more complicated process. We want to feel like we have what it takes to sexually satisfy a woman in bed.

Thanks for this explanation. I guess this reinforces the link between feelings of masculinity and a man's genitals and why he appreciates a woman's positive feedback during sex.

 

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8 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:
19 hours ago, Invincible said:

Seriously, many women don't realize how much power and influence she has over their husbands.

This terrifies me that you are so openly giving what little secrets we have left to the dark side!!!!!!!!! You're going to completely disrupt the balance of power by telling them this... Please, delete,delete,delete,delete,delete!  (haha jk...not serious)

I love that we can have this power and influence.

2 hours ago, Olivier said:

It reminds me of a saying. I'm paraphrasing but: For a husband, when everything is right inside the bedroom, everything will be right outside the bedroom. For a wife, when everything is right outside the bedroom, everything will be right inside the bedroom.

It's over simplifying but you get the point. If Eva had a better attitude towards sex (intercourse and/or other things) and prioritized it more , I like to think Zac's communication would improve (notice that i focused on attitude and priority. It's one thing to be unable to have sex and it's another thing to not even care that you can't). Likewise, If Zac had better communication, I like to think Eva's attitude towards sex would improve.

The problem is that it's a catch 22. One of them has to attempt to break the cycle, or they can try together. Yes, it's vulnerable, humbling, and scary. However,  it's the only way to stop the seeds of bitterness from growing.

I think you've made some very good points revelatory of the complexity of the relationship dynamic between a husband and wife. This catch-22 is very real and prevalent. I've seen it in my friends' marriages and the cause of its perpetuation? Pride.

 

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1 hour ago, Invincible said:

Respect means you admire someone for their talents, character or abilities and as a result hold them in high esteem.

Hmm this is very interesting. I honestly never thought/realized this. I guess I incorrectly thought of respect as treating someone kindly/with dignity, unless it has multiple meanings?. lol well you helped me and naturally understand

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1 hour ago, Naturally said:

You might have a point here. The only reason I can see this type of man marrying a woman is if he wishes to have children. In some countries, I think US being one of them (I might be wrong), the biological father of a child doesn't have full parental responsibility of the child if he’s not married to the child’s mother or if he was not married to the child’s mother at the time of the child’s conception, birth or any time between the child’s conception and birth. Whereas the biological mother of a child has full parental responsibility of the child, whether she’s married or unmarried.

From what I've seen my friends go through, whether they were married or not, the man gets to see his kid(s) one day per week, or one or two days every other week. If the mother is particularly hostile, she could claim the father is abusive to take away his visitation rights, or just try to convince the judge to make things as difficult as possible for the man... One of my friends used to get his kid for 8 hours every other Saturday... Apparently, 16 hours per month counts as "joint custody" here in America...

If they were married when the child was born, nothing much changes after divorce. The man is still lucky if he gets his kids for a few hours a week.

In the post-feminist world, the man's rights are over once the woman becomes pregnant. His only purpose at that point is to keep paying. 

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12 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

This terrifies me that you are so openly giving what little secrets we have left to the dark side!!!!!!!!! You're going to completely disrupt the balance of power by telling them this... Please, delete,delete,delete,delete,delete!  (haha jk...not serious)

Unless that is just what I want the women here to believe that they have more power than they actually do. ;) You and I both know women's only purpose in life is to serve men through making babies and sandwiches...Oh wait, did I say that out loud? :o Uh...I mean women are superior. hehe right?

 

4 hours ago, Naturally said:

These days I think fewer women are consciously choosing to settle but rather unintentionally getting pregnant in long-term relationships and decide to get married since they've been living together for a long time anyway.

yes, but that new trend isn't any better. In the end, the man and the woman are still together out of convenience. The only difference is the circumstances that led them to be together out of convenience. Except in the case of unintentional pregnancy, often times the man bails on the mother and child and the child grows up without a father. People just need to stop being stupid in general.

 

12 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

I definitely see what you’re saying and agree. Not that this really makes a difference but I actually don’t think many of them resent/will resent their husbands. They knew from the beginning they were just using them and have different expectations. All they cared about was getting what they wanted. When he no longer serves their purpose, they don’t resent them, they simply find another pawn.

I have some extended family and friends who knew they were being settled for. Not necessarily for selfish reasons, but that they simply weren't their spouses' first choice. That to me is already bad enough as it is. Let alone being settled for purely selfish reasons. The idea that so many people are even okay with being settled for is just sad. Nobody should ever use others like this for their own devious ends, especially when it involves a legal binding contract that is meant to be life long. It's just an insult to the institution of marriage and to the moral fabric of society.

 

12 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

What's scary are the people that get settled for and have no idea. If that happened to me and I found out, wow I would be so mad and super resentful for so many reasons. Not to be too cynical here but that is a frustrating thing about dating…being aware that men/women can show/tell you everything you want, so they can get what they want.

I thank God for that learning experience because I’ve been able to weed out girls that were the exact same as my coworkers….Ones that are on the husband hunt and seem to care more about what they want, than the man….Men/women that do this seem to view the other person as an accessory.

 Yes, you totally should be angry if you were settled for. I totally hear you on this, my friend. Especially when men have everything to lose from a legal and financial perspective in a marriage. I refuse to be settled for and It's actually one of my biggest fears when it comes to romantic relationships. I fear this so much that I would have a borderline paranoia vetting system if I ever get into a relationship where I would always be on the lookout for red flags that suggests she isn't really into me. I plan to have her be judged by as many friends and family members to ensure that she truly is into me and not just with me because I'm "good enough."

Stay vigilant, my friend.

 

4 hours ago, Naturally said:

I love that we can have this power and influence.

With great power comes great responsibilities. Any decent and loving woman would do well to remember that her vast influence over her husband is only meant to build him up to help him reach his greatest potential, not use it to tear him down. Just like how every good man would never use his superior physical strength to abuse his wife, but rather to protect her with it.

 

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On 3/9/2017 at 1:51 AM, Invincible said:

I fear this so much that I would have a borderline paranoia vetting system if I ever get into a relationship where I would always be on the lookout for red flags that suggests she isn't really into me. I plan to have her be judged by as many friends and family members to ensure that she truly is into me and not just with me because I'm "good enough."

Stay vigilant, my friend.

 

I've been thinking about this thought, in particular. I have been hesitating on posting this, but I feel like I'd be doing you, and the others on here who have the same feeling, an injustice if I didn't point something out.

I totally agree with going into a relationship with your eyes open, even looking for flaws. I mean, I believe that true, honest to goodness, love is seeing a person for who they are and loving them, IN SPITE OF. Of course, we have to decide if their flaws are something we can live with, first, and that is why I think it's a good idea to have family and friends help you see the truth of who the person is that you're with. This, itself is a good idea because when we get involved with someone, when we feel the initial attraction, sometimes our mind can turn a blind eye to flaws. So, it's good to have people that we can trust to tell us what they see, and LISTEN to them.

I would just be cautious of having too paranoid of a vetting system. Be careful that you don't spend so much time worried, and looking at her with a skeptical eye, about what you think she MIGHT do that you miss what she is ACTUALLY DOING... i.e. looking at you lovingly, paying attention to what you are saying, taking interest in you and your life and work, asking about what your dreams are, making you a dinner or cooking (don't look at these things with the eye of 'women do this to get what they want', rather look at it with the eye of 'awww, she really cares and wants to make me happy'. Listen to how she speaks about people, how she treats people, but don't read into EVERYTHING. None of us are perfect, we are flawed beings...every last one of us. Mistakes WILL be made. Again, keep in mind you've asked friends and family to be your logical reasoning...allow yourself to enjoy, but don't ignore something that makes you really uncomfortable. It's a tricky line, is what it is.

Also, keep in mind that, odds are, the woman you are with will be picking up on your paranoid behaviors, however slight. She will either be offended that you're more concerned with your fears of what she MIGHT do than you are with actually enjoying your time with her...OR, and I believe this might be worse, she might start to think YOU are hiding something because it can appear that you are projecting mistrust onto her, and she might wonder why she should trust you if you so obviously do not trust her.

It goes both ways, too, ladies. You should also be asking friends and family to watch out for you. Just as men should be a little concerned that a woman only wants a good father for her kids, a woman should be concerned that the man she loves truly has her best interests at heart...and is who he says he is... i.e. respectful and loving, versus disrespectful and abusive...because they hide who they are just as well as women who aren't really interested in marriage and love as they say.

I'm only pointing these things out because I am concerned that you guys are so worried about being 'taken advantage of' that you might get a chance at a really great girl (we do exist) but you'll miss out because you're not focusing on enough of the good stuff, and the good feelings. I'm also making a point that both sexes have things we should watch out for.

Honestly, whether it works out, or not, it's nice to be able to look at it and see the happiness that you felt.

Let the happiness be the driving factor, not the fear.

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On 3/9/2017 at 2:51 AM, Invincible said:

I have some extended family and friends who knew they were being settled for. Not necessarily for selfish reasons, but that they simply weren't their spouses' first choice. That to me is already bad enough as it is. Let alone being settled for purely selfish reasons. The idea that so many people are even okay with being settled for is just sad. Nobody should ever use others like this for their own devious ends, especially when it involves a legal binding contract that is meant to be life long. It's just an insult to the institution of marriage and to the moral fabric of society.

 

On 3/9/2017 at 2:51 AM, Invincible said:

Yes, you totally should be angry if you were settled for. I totally hear you on this, my friend. Especially when men have everything to lose from a legal and financial perspective in a marriage. I refuse to be settled for and It's actually one of my biggest fears when it comes to romantic relationships. I fear this so much that I would have a borderline paranoia vetting system if I ever get into a relationship where I would always be on the lookout for red flags that suggests she isn't really into me. I plan to have her be judged by as many friends and family members to ensure that she truly is into me and not just with me because I'm "good enough."

Stay vigilant, my friend.

 

For me if I found out after I got married that she settled for me, that’s when I would have a major problem. One, I can’t stand the deceit! That is one of my greatest pet peeves. This would especially make me mad depending on what specifically she settled for…To me some things are definitely worse. Two, she stole the decision away from me for her own selfish reasons. Denying someone the ability to make a life altering decision is so wrong. Now if from the beginning she was open and honest about how she would be settling for me, that is totally different…at least to me. Because now the decision to accept her settlement is up to me and if later on down the road I have problems with it, than that’s my fault. 

After hearing from my female friends/co-workers how women can settle, it too sort of made me paranoid lol, which is why I usually don’t like to blurt out everything that is important to me. Because if they are settling, I now gave her all the information she needs to show/tell me what I want to hear/see. This is why I rather ask someone im into personal and character questions. 

So how did your family/friends know they were being settled for? Did their SO tell them upfront while they were dating?

 

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4 hours ago, PhotoGirl said:

I would just be cautious of having too paranoid of a vetting system. Be careful that you don't spend so much time worried, and looking at her with a skeptical eye, about what you think she MIGHT do that you miss what she is ACTUALLY DOING... i.e. looking at you lovingly, paying attention to what you are saying, taking interest in you and your life and work, asking about what your dreams are, making you a dinner or cooking (don't look at these things with the eye of 'women do this to get what they want', rather look at it with the eye of 'awww, she really cares and wants to make me happy'. Listen to how she speaks about people, how she treats people, but don't read into EVERYTHING. None of us are perfect, we are flawed beings...every last one of us. Mistakes WILL be made. Again, keep in mind you've asked friends and family to be your logical reasoning...allow yourself to enjoy, but don't ignore something that makes you really uncomfortable. It's a tricky line, is what it is.

Also, keep in mind that, odds are, the woman you are with will be picking up on your paranoid behaviors, however slight. She will either be offended that you're more concerned with your fears of what she MIGHT do than you are with actually enjoying your time with her...OR, and I believe this might be worse, she might start to think YOU are hiding something because it can appear that you are projecting mistrust onto her, and she might wonder why she should trust you if you so obviously do not trust her.

Yeah you're absolutely right. I was maybe speaking in bit of hyperbole. I do want to relax and enjoy the relationship. Settling is simply one of those things that I especially want to keep an eye out for, that is all.

 

2 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

So how did your family/friends know they were being settled for? Did their SO tell them upfront while they were dating?

Well, in the case of the two people I know were settled for, their spouses told them before they got married. I recently found out while talking to my cousin-in-law (my cousin's wife) that she knew she wasn't my cousin's first choice. He actually had his eyes on another girl back then. But since it didn't work out, my cousin settled for his wife. It kind of made me lose a bit of respect for my cousin, but at the same time his wife did choose to still marry him even knowing that. So she made her own bed, It still doesn't make settling right though.

The other example is a friend of mine who married a girl who settled for him because he was "a nice enough guy." If anyone says that's the reason to marry, you know they are settling. Anyways my friend is the quintessential nice guy. Always caters to what women want, hardly thinks about what he needs and puts others before himself always. So it's easy for people to take advantage of him. I hear his wife was tired of being with one jerk after another. She decided he was good enough to marry given that she just wanted to settle down and have a family. They have a fine marriage, I suppose in that they seem to get along. But they don't seem "in love," I think my friend is, but it doesn't seem like she is. It's still a shame though because people should marry for love as their main reason.

 

2 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

For me if I found out after I got married that she settled for me, that’s when I would have a major problem. One, I can’t stand the deceit! That is one of my greatest pet peeves. This would especially make me mad depending on what specifically she settled for…To me some things are definitely worse. Two, she stole the decision away from me for her own selfish reasons. Denying someone the ability to make a life altering decision is so wrong. Now if from the beginning she was open and honest about how she would be settling for me, that is totally different…at least to me. Because now the decision to accept her settlement is up to me and if later on down the road I have problems with it, than that’s my fault.

I agree. If a girl was settling for me, I would want her to tell me. Obviously I would call it off immediately but at least she respects me enough to make my choice by being honest.

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@Invincible

Thanks for answering my questions. Man I sure would love to talk to a person who was settled for. I have a ton of questions.

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5 hours ago, Invincible said:

Well, in the case of the two people I know were settled for, their spouses told them before they got married.

This terrifies me because what if they did not tell them and then they found out later? If I got married and found out my wife settled for me...wow...You would see a 6'6, 285 lbs grown ass man cry lol and it would not be a pretty site:(

I know it's already been said but Men/women both lie and deceive people so they can get what they want and i cant stand that.

5 hours ago, Invincible said:

But they don't seem "in love," I think my friend is, but it doesn't seem like she is.

I would much rather be single then ever have something like this. What really freaks me out is the fact people change. You can be madly in love when you get married but I also get freaked out over the thought of a hypothetical wife falling out of love

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On 3/8/2017 at 0:12 PM, StarGate SG1 said:
On 3/7/2017 at 3:05 PM, Naturally said:

do men feel vulnerable during sex?

Hmm another loaded question...Sorry I don’t know for sure. I never did when I had sex, for the most part I was just happy and excited. I can only make guesses based upon observations. So here are my guesses:

Yes, I definitely think it’s possible.

1)  Vulnerability due to a lack of confidence- A man who is not confidant with himself, his body, or his image, will most likely be insecure and as a result feel vulnerable during sex.

She could reject him for the insecurities he worries about. IMO, I think this is a big reason why these men want a woman with the fewest number of sexual partners. They worry that her other partners might not have the things they are insecure about.

This fuels their fears about not being as pleasurable as the competition.  An experienced women will know what she likes, she will know what type of man pleasures her the best physically/emotionally, she can remember her best sex and the man she loved the most (this does not mean she will compare but can remember), and this is the ultimate form of vulnerability for an insecure man, that doubts himself.

Sure there are some guys that rationalize turning away an experienced women by spouting out religious content…if they’re Christian, it’s usually from the bible…Hmmm good thing Jesus does not have a similar attitude and turns us away, or we would all be in a lot of trouble…especially me. This is why I think in many cases, it’s a smoke screen to hide their insecurities. However, I did read very practical non-religious reasons on WTM from a Christian…and he made some good points.

I have witnessed couples where the man has a complete lack of confidence and seen it manifest itself in toxic ways. During difficult times in a relationship, you're not always able to have normal communication your SO, and an insecure man will need reassurance, attention, and validation during those times, burdening his SO with more stress.

A confident man is secure in himself and will see all the good qualities in a women. He wont need constant reassurance or be bothered by men from her past. He will hope they treated her well and he will focus on being the best he can be for her.

2)  Vulnerability through a lack of control- Feeling vulnerability might come with giving up control or not having control?

You can be confident but the moment you let yourself love someone, is the moment you just became vulnerable. You are now in a position to be hurt by your SO.

I think some people feel vulnerable during this phase, while others look at it differently and are excited to trust and love their SO.

I find it interesting how you mostly seem to see vulnerability in relationship in a negative light while I see it as a positive. 

Dr Brene Brown put out some great resources on the issue. 

https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_on_vulnerability

https://www.ted.com/talks/brene_brown_listening_to_shame

 

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On 3/9/2017 at 1:02 PM, Olivier said:

The problem is that it's a catch 22. One of them has to attempt to break the cycle, or they can try together. Yes, it's vulnerable, humbling, and scary. However,  it's the only way to stop the seeds of bitterness from growing.

So much "yes!"! 

On 3/9/2017 at 2:18 PM, Naturally said:

Generally speaking, I think as soon as a woman becomes a mother, now that she's experienced the consequences of sex and the power and seriousness of it, she's no longer able (doesn't want to?) to lose herself in the playfulness and wildness of it as she did prior to motherhood. Much alike some husbands who have a Madonna-Whore complex towards the mother of his children, In a mother's mind she must be a pillar of moral responsibility, respectability, and purity of mind and she can't consolidate this with being a sexually active woman. (I'm not satisfied with this explanation but I will figure out a way to articulate it better in the future)

hmmm I suppose if she doesn't have a healthy outlook on her sexuality then that could impact her if she want to be a role model. Certainly pregnancy and childbirth might bring some experiential knowledge to the potential consequences of sex. But you hear stories of women cursing and punching their husbands and swearing never to get pregnant again during childbirth and a few months later they are longing to have another one! The female is designed to handle the pain of childbirth. Modern medicine can get a bit in the way of this unfortunately. Certainly some might find it very traumatic but I don't think that would be the norm. 

On 3/9/2017 at 2:18 PM, Naturally said:

True, but I suspect Eva sees this as a problem with Zac and if he just made some changes then she'll be fine. A person who doesn't view themselves to have a problem is less likely to procure help for it, especially by themselves.

A good therapist would hopefully identify that.

On 3/9/2017 at 2:18 PM, Naturally said:

when I said "exclusive" I meant in terms of feeding habits

Me too :superwaiter:....As long as there is enough milk for the baby it won't make any difference if the mother isn't breastfeeding her child exclusively. Regarding WHO I think the exclusively is referring to the infant's diet of exclusively breast milk - no formula etc. Not that the mother can't breastfeed more than one being in the first 6 months.

On 3/9/2017 at 2:18 PM, Naturally said:

This strengthens the bond between mum and baby as baby is even more dependent on the mother and also experiences greater closeness than a bottle-fed infant.

Yes. Especially if they aren't' staring at their phones while breastfeeding! A lady at my church helped run a program teaching mothers the basics of how to relate to their infants, one of them being look at your baby not your phone when breastfeeding. Kinda sad that this needs to be taught :( 

On 3/9/2017 at 3:16 PM, Naturally said:
On 3/8/2017 at 0:12 PM, StarGate SG1 said:

She could reject him for the insecurities he worries about. IMO, I think this is a big reason why these men want a woman with the fewest number of sexual partners. They worry that her other partners might not have the things they are insecure about.

So this could be why even the most salacious lothario desires a virgin. Nope, still not empathetic to their hypocrisy.

I don't think that would be much of a factor for a preference of a virgin (bride?). I'd suggest that the salacious lothario who prefers a virgin bride might not like the thought of other males having "disrespected"/"used" her like he has so many other women.

On 3/9/2017 at 3:16 PM, Naturally said:

I think US being one of them (I might be wrong), the biological father of a child doesn't have full parental responsibility of the child if he’s not married to the child’s mother or if he was not married to the child’s mother at the time of the child’s conception, birth or any time between the child’s conception and birth. Whereas the biological mother of a child has full parental responsibility of the child, whether she’s married or unmarried.

As far as I know even if unmarried, fathers are still liable for child support. 

 

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2 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

I find it interesting how you mostly seem to see vulnerability in relationship in a negative light while I see it as a positive. 

Dr Brene Brown put out some great resources on the issue. 

Yeah that’s because the “bad” is what ends or strains a relationship, not the good. Also, I feel that it keeps in line with the theme of these last two scenarios I read, which focused on how the “bad” things were straining the hypothetical relationships. 

For 1) I'll have to go back and check it later but I don't think I mentioned vulnerability as being negative, but rather some of the potentially, toxic traits that can lead someone to feel vulnerable. E.g, A man that lacks confidence in a relationship is usually not a good thing and can put a lot of stress on the relationship. I am not sure if 2) is completely negative? Loving a person is a good thing.

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On 3/14/2017 at 3:30 PM, StarGate SG1 said:

that’s because the “bad” is what ends or strains a relationship, not the good.

So what would you consider "bad vulnerability" and "good vulnerability"?? If I absolutely do not care about someone's opinion or what they might do with whatever I give them there won't be any interpersonal connection through vulnerability or any other means really. Vulnerability requires a degree of insecurity, of an extension of trust that may be violated, the risk of some negative repercussion. Depending on how that vulnerability is treated, positive connection either grow or diminishes.

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13 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

If I absolutely do not care about someone's opinion or what they might do with whatever I give them there won't be any interpersonal connection through vulnerability or any other means really. Vulnerability requires a degree of insecurity, of an extension of trust that may be violated, the risk of some negative repercussion. Depending on how that vulnerability is treated, positive connection either grow or diminishes.

That might be true for you and/or the long-term relationships you have had, assuming you have had any. However, other couples are able to build strong, interpersonal connections in other ways.

I know plenty that are fully secure in themselves, have unyielding trust in each other, deeply care about the opinions their spouse has of them, and they have the best interpersonal connections they have ever experienced. They are each other’s best friend, supporter, and lover.

The foundation to those successful marriages were built upon several strengths: First having confidence in themselves and then each other, then having the security that comes along with their confidence, and then trusting each other (and a few other qualities but not relevant here.). These pillars of strength work great for them to cultivate their love for one another.

They did not build their successful marriage upon weakness, insecurity, fear of risks, or thoughts of negative repercussions. There are different paths to building and cultivating successful relationships. To each their own.

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