Naturally

Virgin Therapists: Home Sweet Hell

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Eva and Zac have been married for 5 years and have two young children. Lately Zac has felt that he and Eva are drifting apart. It became more apparent to Zac after they had their second child about a year ago. He can’t figure out what to do to make it better. He’s scared that his wife has stopped loving him since they had kids and uses his traveling for work, among other things, as a way to justify them drifting apart.

Zac feels his value as a person is based solely on how he is as a father. He feels like he and Eva are not even married anymore, just two people who live together and take care of the kids.

Zac admits he’s not a very good father since he has to travel a lot for work. That's the big issue now. He admits he has to make some changes to stay home more so that he can be with the kids. As the sole breadwinner, working in a senior position in a field where his skills don't naturally translate to other professions, he’s having a hard time finding another job. Especially since they moved to Eva’s small hometown to be close to her family.

At work, Zac feels people value his opinion and listen to what he has to say. Although at home he says his wife throws tantrums calling him "selfish idiot" and calls his explanations for being away so much "bad excuses". Zac says Eva seems to genuinely believe that he would prefer to be away from her and their two kids and it's made her resent him. They haven't had sex in at least 14 months and if he brings it up she shuts him down immediately, saying something like "The way things are, I'm not at all interested in sex."

Zac loves his current job and doesn’t really want to start a new career in a new field, but he will do it if it means a secure income and a happier home life but he’s scared that it won't get better. Since they aren't romantic at all anymore (with the exception of a kiss goodnight or possibly a hug after a bad fight) he’s terrified that "the job issue" is just a placeholder for something much worse, that she doesn't love him anymore and that will become painfully obvious if he quit his job.

He’s at a loss and every day that goes by they seem to drift more apart and fight more frequently.

 

Let’s kick this off so we can operate on this mess.

What are your thoughts on what’s happening here? Does Eva have reason to be behaving the way she is? Are Zac’s concerns valid?

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I'd say they need counseling. This story never really addresses what we are talking about so I really don't have any idea what is happening. They are drifting apart, haven't had sex in over a year, and they are just child raising roommates. Ok, why? How did this drift start over a year ago? We don't really know enough to guess at what is going on. Apparently this started after the kids but just the fact that they now have kids is still too vague. He works away from home a lot. Is that new? This seems to imply that he's had the same job for all 5  years of the marriage so we'd still need to dig deeper as to why there has been a change in their dynamic. Usually people don't separate and drift apart like this for no reason we are just seeing how things have turned out but we still don't know what happened a couple of years ago to start them on this path.

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im no expert on relationships , but I know that relationships require time from both parties and the fact that the husband is traveling a lot, could be a one of the reasons they are drifting apart. The fact that children are in the picture makes it even harder for them to go their own ways . They clearly need to openly discuss their marriage as it stands , perhaps with the help of a counselor and decide whether they are going to try and fix it, or alternatives.

 

Personally I would not want to be in a marriage where my wife doesn't love me or probably never did in the first place, even though I love her. 

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Well, if he feels that she started pulling away after the second child then that indicates that, maybe, she is feeling overwhelmed. Possibly even suffering postpartum depression. This can make for a lot problems if it's not addressed. Also, it can be exacerbated by things like feeling left out. If she's alone with the kids all day, every day, because of his work, this could pose a problem. Now, I'm not saying Zac should quit his job but, if he is as important as it sounds he is, he probably has some pull on time off and/or maybe working from home. Also, they've moved closer to her family, this should be helpful.

Honestly, unless there is more to this story, we're filling a lot in, and it sounds a lot like they are both trying to learn how kids fit into their marriage. Unlike some people, I actually fully understand this. I mean, with almost anything in life there is a learning curve. Adjustments must be made, and we must grow and learn as we go. So, based solely on how I see things, I think that she needs counseling, and they could benefit from counseling together, and maybe a family parenting class.

I think I'm going to think about this a little more...maybe there is something else here...

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I'm noticing a trend here. In a lot of your scenarios, it is the man who cares more about the condition of the marriage than the woman does, @Naturally. If only women cared about their marriage just as much. jk, sort of...not really...maybe ;) lol

You say that the two started drifting apart after they had kids together. In our "children first" society here in the West, this is actually a very common occurrence in marriages today. Usually it's the mother who eventually finds total fulfillment in her connection with her children that she either intentionally or unintentionally will start to neglect her relationship with her husband. I'm not saying that is the whole reason in the case in this situation but it does sound like it is at least a contributing factor. Maybe it could also be Eva is overwhelmed and Zac is not helping with the kids as much as he should.

This may be an unpopular opinion especially given our children-centric norms, but when it comes to a family, I wholehearted believe a marriage takes priority even over children. I'm not saying we should neglect children or do our best to fulfill their needs and love them. What I am saying is that the parents need to keep their marriage strong even after having kids. Your spouse is your partner for life, one whom you made a vow to devote your whole life to for better or worse. This is someone whom you have the most intimate physical and emotional bond with above every other relationship. While you do love your children very dearly, you don't have the same level of intimacy with them as your spouse (At least you shouldn't. That is all kinds of wrong). They will eventually have their own life and start their own families. But your spouse will remain. You need to keep that connection strong, not just for the marriage's sake but also for the stability of the entire family. It's the kids who also suffer when their parents are constantly fighting over resentment rather than working together to be the best parents they can be. When a marriage is strong, the kids benefit as well.

Now to the situation at hand. I'm going to be consistent with what I said in the Adam and Jane scenario and reiterate that family comes before work. Therefore, if I was in Zac's situation, I would go for the new job if it meant more time with the family. I may not like the new job as much, but my family comes first. So I would just suck it up for them. He is definitely in the wrong in using his excessive time away from work as an excuse for contributing to the rift between him and Eva as well as neglecting his kids. It sets a bad precedence if he is basking in validation from others at work when he's not getting it at home. If this happens to come in the form of an attractive, sympathetic secretary then....the results can be catastrophic. Based on what you described, then Eva is correct in her accusation that Zac is making bad excuses. It is clear he is taking steps to change though. I do also sympathize with his fears. Many husbands fear they are just mere "sperm donors" to their wives solely for the purpose of giving them kids when they start neglecting their husbands. We of course want to be loved for who we are as a person rather than just simply for what we can provide. So while he has made many mistakes on his part, his fears are valid.

In Eva's case, there isn't as much detail on her side as there is on Zac's side. But from what is given to us, she has a right to be angry at Zac's absence. Look, maybe she does feel overwhelmed with the kids because Zac is not pulling his weight and I totally sympathize with her if that is the case. But the way she is acting is not justified at all. Calling him a "selfish idiot" is verbal abuse. You should never called your spouse names, period. There is also no reason for her to throw a tantrum either. That is just plain childish and immature. She is an adult, she should act like one. Also, good Lord, they haven't has sex in over a year?! :o That says to me the marriage isn't just rocky, it is on life support! You did mention at least Zac is taking steps to own up to his mistakes on his part but make no mention of what Eva is doing on her part aside from acting like a spoiled child. If she isn't doing much, then she needs to grow up and own up to her part and take steps to fight for the marriage too. In short, she has a right to be angry, but not in the way she is expressing it.

Marriage counseling I think is a must at this point. The marriage is in desperate need of professional help.

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20 hours ago, HeWhoWaits said:

I'd say they need counseling. 

Probably right, but if Zac isn't even home for much of the time, the lack of continuity of counselling would likely do little good. 

20 hours ago, HeWhoWaits said:

Usually people don't separate and drift apart like this for no reason we are just seeing how things have turned out but we still don't know what happened a couple of years ago to start them on this path.

Because he said he started to see a change after kid number two I think it's safe to assume it's something to do with her getting wrapped up in her mummy identity coupled with him being away from her and their kids so often.

16 hours ago, Red_Fox said:

Personally I would not want to be in a marriage where my wife doesn't love me or probably never did in the first place, even though I love her. 

Are we able to tell from this scenario that she doesn't love him? she seems bitter and resentful but the presence of those feelings doesn't necessarily mean the absence of other feelings such as love. I think it's highly likely she loved him at one time, to marry a man and have two kids with him seems like quite an investment for someone you don't love.

15 hours ago, PhotoGirl said:

Well, if he feels that she started pulling away after the second child then that indicates that, maybe, she is feeling overwhelmed. Possibly even suffering postpartum depression.

Good point. One year is not that long since giving birth, she's still having to deal with a very young baby.

Perhaps her pulling away from him is the effect due to him being away frequently over the last year. She's being neglected but then he comes home and complains that she's neglecting him. I reckon' their behaviours are feeding off each other.

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

I'm noticing a trend here. In a lot of your scenarios, it is the man who cares more about the condition of the marriage than the woman does, @Naturally. If only women cared about their marriage just as much. jk, sort of...not really...maybe ;) lol

Lol oh dear! I do have quite a few where the wife is desperate for a good marriage and the husband is the one with his head in the clouds. This one was just the next one I had bookmarked but I will get on to the scenarios with the crummy husbands. :P

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

You say that the two started drifting apart after they had kids together. In our "children first" society here in the West, this is actually a very common occurrence in marriages today. Usually it's the mother who eventually finds total fulfillment in her connection with her children that she either intentionally or unintentionally will start to neglect her relationship with her husband.

This. I see this so often it's the epitome of normalcy for me. In fact, my mother is the same. It's quite common for Central & Southern American and Southern European mothers to canonize their children as gods in their lives and they view them as their whole life's purpose. I haven't really figured out why they do this, they just seem to generally be more obsessed with their children. Although interestingly, I have seen a cultural change with white Australian mothers who are beginning to behave in this same way; relentlessly fawning over their children, not wanting their children to move out, wanting their adult children dependent on them for life. While there may be many confounding factors here and I'm aware of the pitfalls of linking correlation with causation, BUT I think it's worth exploring that divorced mothers are more attached to their children in this unhealthy way. I wonder which came first, was the mother finding fulfillment in the child and neglecting the husband and that's why they divorced or did wife and husband divorce for an unrelated reason and the mother subsequently began to find all her fulfillment in her child. I would be very interested in this study. 

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

Your spouse is your partner for life, one whom you made a vow to devote your whole life to for better or worse. This is someone whom you have the most intimate physical and emotional bond with above every other relationship.

True, but a mother might feel that having a fetus grow inside her body for 9 months, exit her body after hours of pain, breastfeed exclusively from her body for 6 months is the most intimate physical and emotional bond unlike any other relationship she has had - including with her husband. I'm not saying it's right I'm just saying that it may very well be the prevailing view of many (majority of?) mothers in the world. As men never experience this, the majority of them probably think that a wife is with whom they will achieve the most intimate physical and emotional bond.

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

While you do love your children very dearly, you don't have the same level of intimacy with them as your spouse (At least you shouldn't. That is all kinds of wrong)

True, but after a woman has a baby she's generally not looking for that kind of intimacy for quite some time because her hormones shift to focus on nurturing this child and preventing getting pregnant again at all costs. For this reason her libido plummets and every physical attribute to enable enjoyable sex evaporates (dry vagina, lactating, excess weight). Again, not necessarily right, but reality.

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

I'm going to be consistent with what I said in the Adam and Jane scenario and reiterate that family comes before work. Therefore, if I was in Zac's situation, I would go for the new job if it meant more time with the family. I may not like the new job as much, but my family comes first. So I would just suck it up for them.

Could Zac not feel resentful of Eva in the future making a career change from a job he loves to a job that will likely be of a lower status and pay less? Then the question is with whom should the resentment lie? - with Eva who resents her husband not being home or Zac who resents having to change career in order to be home.

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

Based on what you described, then Eva is correct in her accusation that Zac is making bad excuses.

Are they bad excuses or is it simply reality. Someone must work, supporting a wife and two kids on one salary is not easy should she not be grateful that he is able to make enough money to provide for them and be more understanding of his absence? 

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

I do also sympathize with his fears. Many husbands fear they are just mere "sperm donors" to their wives solely for the purpose of giving them kids when they start neglecting their husbands. We of course want to be loved for who we are as a person rather than just simply for what we can provide. So while he has made many mistakes on his part, his fears are valid.

I'm really interested in understanding more about this. A woman can pretty much get sperm from any faucet, vending machine and drive-thru so why would a woman want to "trap" a man in order to get his sperm? Women impregnated by men they're not married to receive child support so surely it can't be about resources, can it?

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

 But the way she is acting is not justified at all. Calling him a "selfish idiot" is verbal abuse. You should never called your spouse names, period.

I can't agree enough. This type of thing can hurt on such a deep level and create damage that you can never recover from. Personally, I'd prefer he tear up our wedding certificate than call me names like that. I never understood why swear words are censored while the words that do the real damage to a person's self-esteem are acceptable. Anyone who says they're offended because someone used the word *uck/shit/hell etc has never been called stupid/idiot/useless/dumb

12 hours ago, Invincible said:

Also, good Lord, they haven't has sex in over a year?! :o That says to me the marriage isn't just rocky, it is on life support!

But baby was only born a year ago. The physiological changes her body is undergoing and possible postpartum depression could be driving much of her lack of libido. It can take a very long time to recover physically and emotionally from having a child. A wife aware of the biological reasons behind her low libido might tend to her husband's needs with other forms of intimacy, but am I wrong to think that a year without sexual intercourse after having a child isn't that severe?

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8 hours ago, Naturally said:

This. I see this so often it's the epitome of normalcy for me. In fact, my mother is the same. It's quite common for Central & Southern American and Southern European mothers to canonize their children as gods in their lives and they view them as their whole life's purpose. I haven't really figured out why they do this, they just seem to generally be more obsessed with their children. Although interestingly, I have seen a cultural change with white Australian mothers who are beginning to behave in this same way; relentlessly fawning over their children, not wanting their children to move out, wanting their adult children dependent on them for life. While there may be many confounding factors here and I'm aware of the pitfalls of linking correlation with causation, BUT I think it's worth exploring that divorced mothers are more attached to their children in this unhealthy way. I wonder which came first, was the mother finding fulfillment in the child and neglecting the husband and that's why they divorced or did wife and husband divorce for an unrelated reason and the mother subsequently began to find all her fulfillment in her child. I would be very interested in this study. 

Well I doubt that a mother neglecting her husband for kids makes up for a large percentages of divorces since that would likely mean the husband would be the one who initiated the divorce. Because at least in the US, 70% of divorces are filed by women roughly. But I think based on personal observation, it is very common for mothers to find fulfillment in their kids and neglect their husbands. In a way that is kind of how it looked like with my parents as well. My mom is affectionate towards myself and my sister but hardly ever towards my dad.

 

9 hours ago, Naturally said:

True, but a mother might feel that having a fetus grow inside her body for 9 months, exit her body after hours of pain, breastfeed exclusively from her body for 6 months is the most intimate physical and emotional bond unlike any other relationship she has had - including with her husband. I'm not saying it's right I'm just saying that it may very well be the prevailing view of many (majority of?) mothers in the world. As men never experience this, the majority of them probably think that a wife is with whom they will achieve the most intimate physical and emotional bond.

Well maybe. I guess I will never know because I will never have to bear children. All I know is that a married couple are supposed to be the most intimate of all relationships. But it does make sense that there may be a unique emotional attachment to a child that is growing inside of you.

 

9 hours ago, Naturally said:

But baby was only born a year ago. The physiological changes her body is undergoing and possible postpartum depression could be driving much of her lack of libido. It can take a very long time to recover physically and emotionally from having a child. A wife aware of the biological reasons behind her low libido might tend to her husband's needs with other forms of intimacy, but am I wrong to think that a year without sexual intercourse after having a child isn't that severe?

9 hours ago, Naturally said:

True, but after a woman has a baby she's generally not looking for that kind of intimacy for quite some time because her hormones shift to focus on nurturing this child and preventing getting pregnant again at all costs. For this reason her libido plummets and every physical attribute to enable enjoyable sex evaporates (dry vagina, lactating, excess weight). Again, not necessarily right, but reality.

I think it is different for each woman. Some regain their desire for sex relatively quickly while others might take a while longer. I know at least for one of my good friends, it only took about a month and a half after their first child before they started having sex again. But it seems like in this case, it isn't really an issue of recovering from pregnancy and more of an issue of resentment between Zac and Eva. Because even if it was because of recovery, a year seems way too long without sexual intimacy of any kind. That can really strain a marriage. I'm not saying that it always has to be full on sex but at least there ought to be lighter expressions of sexual activity to keep the passion alive.

 

10 hours ago, Naturally said:

Could Zac not feel resentful of Eva in the future making a career change from a job he loves to a job that will likely be of a lower status and pay less? Then the question is with whom should the resentment lie? - with Eva who resents her husband not being home or Zac who resents having to change career in order to be home.

Well maybe I'm a bit biased because personally my passion isn't in my work, it is in family and things outside of work. But I suppose they both would have a right to be resentful in their own ways. For Zac, it is a tall order to be asked to leave a job you love for one you hate. After all, you spend most of your day at work so he would be in for a miserable 8 or more hours a day. For Eva, I am sure that she would rather have her husband home more. What is the point of having a family if you're hardly ever there for them?

 

10 hours ago, Naturally said:

Are they bad excuses or is it simply reality. Someone must work, supporting a wife and two kids on one salary is not easy should she not be grateful that he is able to make enough money to provide for them and be more understanding of his absence? 

Of course she should be grateful that he is busting his butt to support the family. Providing for a family is really stressful. But it goes both ways too. He should appreciate her raising the kids and at least be actively find ways to be home more. I just think both should be more understanding and appreciative of one another in general.

 

10 hours ago, Naturally said:

I'm really interested in understanding more about this. A woman can pretty much get sperm from any faucet, vending machine and drive-thru so why would a woman want to "trap" a man in order to get his sperm? Women impregnated by men they're not married to receive child support so surely it can't be about resources, can it?

Yes it can be. Many women who feel their biological clock ticking often times settle for a man they don't really love just so they can have the opportunity to have kids. Which I think is disgusting to use people as merely a means to an end. They do so because they can stay home with the kids and have a man around to support them financially. It doesn't make much sense to get to a sperm bank to raise a child all by yourself. There is actually a huge growing population that are choosing to forsake marriage because from a legal and financial POV, men have so much to lose if a marriage goes wrong that it's not worth it for them. No man wants to be reduced to merely a walking ATM or a sperm donor.

 

 

 

 

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11 hours ago, Naturally said:

 

am I wrong to think that a year without sexual intercourse after having a child isn't that severe?

Wow.

If and when you get engaged, please let your fiance known you feel this way? I promise I'm not being rude, it's just an honest request.

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On 3/2/2017 at 11:13 AM, Invincible said:

Well I doubt that a mother neglecting her husband for kids makes up for a large percentages of divorces since that would likely mean the husband would be the one who initiated the divorce. Because at least in the US, 70% of divorces are filed by women roughly.

Good point.

On 3/2/2017 at 11:13 AM, Invincible said:

My mom is affectionate towards myself and my sister but hardly ever towards my dad.

Why do you think that is? Do you think it's cultural? Was her mother the same way towards her father?

How do you think your father feels? Do you think he feels neglected? 

On 3/2/2017 at 11:13 AM, Invincible said:

Of course she should be grateful that he is busting his butt to support the family. Providing for a family is really stressful. But it goes both ways too. He should appreciate her raising the kids and at least be actively find ways to be home more. I just think both should be more understanding and appreciative of one another in general.

True. But I think I'm more with Zac on this one and think Eva might be a bit too demanding. Of course the situation could be better if Zac had a job with less travel and he was home more for her and the kids but life isn't perfect and sometimes you have to make trade-offs. It's because of Zac's job that she's got a home near her family, that she's able to stay home with her children, and that she can provide for her children. Unless she has an extraordinary reason like postnatal depression or a child with special needs she should stop complaining and be grateful. It just seems like such a first world problem. 20 years ago My dad was working all day and going to school at night and was home only 6 hours a day while my mum was at home with a newborn and a toddler, and no one complained. It was life, you did what you had to do to survive.

 

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On 3/2/2017 at 0:37 PM, Olivier said:

Wow.

If and when you get engaged, please let your fiance known you feel this way? I promise I'm not being rude, it's just an honest request.

I can understand if there's no other sexual intimacy for a year, but surely other forms of sexual intimacy when a wife still doesn't feel comfortable for intercourse is durable, no?

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15 minutes ago, Naturally said:

Why do you think that is? Do you think it's cultural? Was her mother the same way towards her father?

How do you think your father feels? Do you think he feels neglected? 

I'm not sure about her own mother's treatment towards her dad. I do know that it is in their culture that it's normal not to show affection in general, at least not in the way we show it here in the West. We tend to show affection through words of affirmation and physical contact like hugs. That isn't as common in my parents' culture. But I think it goes beyond the absence of affection. I just think my parents take each other for granted a lot of times. They will often criticize each other when the other isn't around to my sister and I. In general, both my parents are more affectionate towards my sister and I to each other.

 

26 minutes ago, Naturally said:

True. But I think I'm more with Zac on this one and think Eva might be a bit too demanding. Of course the situation could be better if Zac had a job with less travel and he was home more for her and the kids but life isn't perfect and sometimes you have to make trade-offs. It's because of Zac's job that she's got a home near her family, that she's able to stay home with her children, and that she can provide for her children. Unless she has an extraordinary reason like postnatal depression or a child with special needs she should stop complaining and be grateful. It just seems like such a first world problem. 20 years ago My dad was working all day and going to school at night and was home only 6 hours a day while my mum was at home with a newborn and a toddler, and no one complained. It was life, you did what you had to do to survive.

I have to be honest here. I think I was trying too hard to empathize with both sides. My initial gut feeling was that while Zac was wrong in his own way, at least he acknowledges his shortcomings and is doing something about it. Eva on the other hand, is downright acting like a spoiled and neglectful brat of a wife who is ungrateful and was way more in the wrong. But I was hesitant to point that out because I was afraid I might be subconsciously biased in favor of the male in this situation. But seeing how even you as a woman can side with Zac suggests maybe my initial reaction was correct in that Eva may be more objectively wrong here. I do however, still stand by my personal preference to change jobs if it allowed me to be home more with the family, even if it was a less enjoyable job. But it would be my own decision to do so. I do agree that Eva should quit acting like a spoiled brat and appreciate that Zac works his butt off to provide a good home and the opportunity for her to stay home with the kids and be near her family. That in no way diminishes her contribution of being a housewife and a stay at home mom. I fully acknowledge that is a very stressful and tough job in it's own way. But she is the stubborn one here and not seeing how selfish she is. 

This is actually something that I hope all women understand about their husbands, especially ones who stay at home with the kids. Any decent husband wants nothing more than to give his wife and kids the world if he could. We want to provide a comfortable life for the wife and kids, not just necessities but also luxuries as well. We base a lot of our worth in our ability to provide for our families. Unfortunately not every man can generate a high income compared to others and therefore may not be able to provide the ideal lifestyle. It can already make a man feel like a failure knowing he can't provide everything for his family just on it's own. How much worse would it be when you combine that with an ungrateful and demanding wife? I would gladly prefer to be single than to marry a woman like that. One of the best ways a wife can show respect for her husband is to appreciate how hard he works to provide for her, no matter the income, and by contently living within their means.

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11 hours ago, Naturally said:

I can understand if there's no other sexual intimacy for a year, but surely other forms of sexual intimacy when a wife still doesn't feel comfortable for intercourse is durable, no?

Oh okay. Thanks for clarifying. That changes things. I'm tempted to say it is "durable" but a year is a long time. Also, there's a difference between not wanting to and physically being unable to. There's a lot of grey area in this scenario.

For the record though, no intercourse for a year is still a big deal. IMHO, it is in fact "severe". Yes, life happens, but it's nothing to be non-chalant about. Just my opinion.

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17 hours ago, Invincible said:

Eva on the other hand, is downright acting like a spoiled and neglectful brat of a wife who is ungrateful and was way more in the wrong.

We're in agreement. Unfortunately I think there are more women like this than we realise and the problem is parenting. There are so many parents who raise their daughters to think they're the most important person in the world and they become selfish and entitled women and mothers. I went to school with these girls and I see their type everywhere. They're a nuisance to society. 

17 hours ago, Invincible said:

Any decent husband wants nothing more than to give his wife and kids the world if he could. We want to provide a comfortable life for the wife and kids, not just necessities but also luxuries as well. We base a lot of our worth in our ability to provide for our families

The more I understand about men the more I can empathize with them. While I, as a woman, may not draw my inherent value from my ability to provide for my family I can understand the need for appreciation for something you feel so strongly about. And if all I was receiving for my effort was complaints, abuse and neglect I would feel very frustrated and hurt.

6 hours ago, Olivier said:

For the record though, no intercourse for a year is still a big deal. IMHO, it is in fact "severe". Yes, life happens, but it's nothing to be non-chalant about. 

Would you liken it to a husband and wife who can't speak to each other for a year but can write notes and communicate through text? For a wife, not being able to communicate verbally with her husband and receive verbal responses from him for one year would be, for me, as you describe sex, possibly durable but excruciatingly difficult - and not just difficult logistically but emotionally, I would hurt in my heart.

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6 hours ago, Naturally said:

We're in agreement. Unfortunately I think there are more women like this than we realise and the problem is parenting. There are so many parents who raise their daughters to think they're the most important person in the world and they become selfish and entitled women and mothers. I went to school with these girls and I see their type everywhere. They're a nuisance to society. 

Yes indeed. I believe it's called "princess complex." We always tell our daughters to know their worth and to never settle for anything less than a man who will cherish her with his entire being. Yet we don't often tell our sons the same. All we do is tell them how to respect women. We ought to be telling our daughters to respect men and treat us with dignity as well. It goes both ways. No one is entitled to a romantic partner simply for existing. In order to be worthy of someone great, they themselves need to be someone worth of being with. The sad thing is, I used to believe in that whole "princess complex" way of raising girls. But no more. If I ever have daughters, I will raise her with the same message as I would give my sons. Be the right person first, then you will attract the right person.

 

6 hours ago, Naturally said:

The more I understand about men the more I can empathize with them. While I, as a woman, may not draw my inherent value from my ability to provide for my family I can understand the need for appreciation for something you feel so strongly about. And if all I was receiving for my effort was complaints, abuse and neglect I would feel very frustrated and hurt.

The same is also true for me as I gain more understanding about women. I think our culture encourages an antagonistic relationship between the sexes, like we're made to view the other sex as the enemy in constant competition to get the "upper hand" in a relationship. That's not how it's supposed to be. Men and women aren't meant to be enemies, we're are meant to be each other's partners and helpers in life. We are created to complement each other and we make each other stronger. It is my hope that both sexes learn to understand each other and appreciate the differences between us.

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9 hours ago, Invincible said:

Yes indeed. I believe it's called "princess complex." We always tell our daughters to know their worth and to never settle for anything less than a man who will cherish her with his entire being. Yet we don't often tell our sons the same. All we do is tell them how to respect women. We ought to be telling our daughters to respect men and treat us with dignity as well. It goes both ways. No one is entitled to a romantic partner simply for existing. In order to be worthy of someone great, they themselves need to be someone worth of being with. The sad thing is, I used to believe in that whole "princess complex" way of raising girls. But no more. If I ever have daughters, I will raise her with the same message as I would give my sons. Be the right person first, then you will attract the right person.

 

The same is also true for me as I gain more understanding about women. I think our culture encourages an antagonistic relationship between the sexes, like we're made to view the other sex as the enemy in constant competition to get the "upper hand" in a relationship. That's not how it's supposed to be. Men and women aren't meant to be enemies, we're are meant to be each other's partners and helpers in life. We are created to complement each other and we make each other stronger. It is my hope that both sexes learn to understand each other and appreciate the differences between us.

I could not agree more.

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On 2/28/2017 at 8:22 AM, Naturally said:

Zac says Eva seems to genuinely believe that he would prefer to be away from her and their two kids and it's made her resent him.

Hmmm this is probably why......lol sort of jk

On 2/28/2017 at 8:22 AM, Naturally said:

Although at home he says his wife throws tantrums calling him "selfish idiot" and calls his explanations for being away so much "bad excuses"

If I ever get married and my wife evolves into this, I’m probably going to need medication lol.

 

Questions?   (If this is too irrelevant, let me know and I’ll delete it)

This is not a simple disagreement/fight, she essentially thinks he is not good enough and sees him as a failure. She feels, disappointment, being let down, and is more than angry at him. Is Zac still going to have a desire to bone his wife, when things are this bad? Sure if it was just a normal couples’ quarrel but this is a lot different.

This also goes back to something @Naturally mentioned in a previous post about “taking care it”  yourself…I might have to change my opinion on that topic and a few others, after reading this scenario.

I’m asking b\c I don’t know if I would want to be bumping uglies with Eva, considering how she feels….I could be completely wrong as I have never been in that situation…But here is my guess…

I think my primary brain would say, “No way…Not interested in having sex with her. Her attitude is appalling for a lot of reasons.

Unfortunately, my male parts (aka secondary brain) have a mind of their own and it would be the antithesis of my primary brain. There are a lot of variables that would determine the outcome…too many to list haha.

The idea of a wife like Eva….and having sex with her is really confusing…hmmm much to think about ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Conflict Resolution:   (I don’t think this is applicable per this scenario but I imagine it might look something like this?)

If both parties are, mature, appreciative, surrendering, and thoughtful, they should be able to work together to implement needed changes:

1)      Have the grandparents watch the kids for a day

2)      Must openly talk about what they are feeling and why (seems like Eva/Zac did not do this?)

3)      Identify their relationship goals and the need for change

4)      Agree to the goals they are going to work towards and what to avoid

5)      MUST allot predetermined time for mom and dad…even if it’s just 30 min

6)      If this does not work then seek outside help? I don’t know never been married. That’s the best I can come up with

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________       

 Eva-There is not much I can say that has not already been well stated.

1)      It appears she has lost sight of her blessings and is taking them granted. I think this is mostly due to living comfortably, getting used to regular income (without making it), and the “Princess Complex” @Invincible mentioned….Eva hasn’t realized life is not a Disney movie.

2)      If they got divorced, she had to work for a living, and raise those kids….maybe then she might look back and see things differently.

3)      If he took a lesser paying job/better hrs, would Eva still be ungrateful bc now they make less $...?. If Eva loves him, it seems to be conditional not unconditional. She wants everything and if she does not get it, she’s not happy.

Zac- Oops i forgot to add this...but other people already mentioned it...If he is not recognizing her excellent parenting skills, then he needs to complement and appreciate her contributions to the family

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

On 3/1/2017 at 7:29 AM, Naturally said:

Because he said he started to see a change after kid number two I think it's safe to assume it's something to do with her getting wrapped up in her mummy identity coupled with him being away from her and their kids so often.

If her identity is changing from wife to mother. That’s a problem. Ideally, mother should be added to her identity, not replacing her wifely role. I totally understand how and why this can happen to a male/female but in this case, it's not helping. If this was only caused by him working more, then they need to figure out what to do:

a)      Get a lower paying job/better hours, same town (hoping she will be fine with a pay cut lol )

b )      Similar job type but better hrs/different town

On 3/1/2017 at 7:29 AM, Naturally said:

I think it's highly likely she loved him at one time, to marry a man and have two kids with him seems like quite an investment for someone you don't love.

True, however, there is another side to this. In college, one of my old jobs was 85% female and after college, in the corporate world I also worked with mainly women. I feel like I could write several books on what I’ve learned haha.  Many of them openly talked (not during work) about marrying their husbands out of convenience…just so they can have a family, felt outside pressure to marry, or others settled for a nice guy bc he fulfilled some of their emotional needs…e.g, not being alone, companionship, wanting to be loved

On 3/1/2017 at 7:29 AM, Naturally said:

breastfeed exclusively from her body for 6 months is the most intimate physical and emotional bond unlike any other relationship she has had - including with her husband.

Well then she should tell that baby to stop being so selfish and save some for daddy. And nothing is stopping Eva from flopping a tit out and letting her husband suckle away....After all, she has two for a reason... now everyone can bond....although, probably not at the same time...that would be weird

(jk......on calling the baby selfish:D.....Although, I would have no problem sampling some breast milk...If I can drink an excretion that gets sucked out of a cows tit, then I should be able to sample hers)

On 3/5/2017 at 1:44 AM, Invincible said:

Yes indeed. I believe it's called "princess complex." We always tell our daughters to know their worth and to never settle for anything less than a man who will cherish her with his entire being. Yet we don't often tell our sons the same. All we do is tell them how to respect women. We ought to be telling our daughters to respect men and treat us with dignity as well. It goes both ways. No one is entitled to a romantic partner simply for existing. In order to be worthy of someone great, they themselves need to be someone worth of being with. The sad thing is, I used to believe in that whole "princess complex" way of raising girls. But no more. If I ever have daughters, I will raise her with the same message as I would give my sons. Be the right person first, then you will attract the right person.

Absolute truth right here. Preach it.

Although, per the last sentence, would it be more accurate to say something like.... then you will be ready for a relationship....?

On 3/5/2017 at 1:44 AM, Invincible said:

We are created to complement each other and we make each other stronger.

Definitely agree.

On 3/4/2017 at 3:26 AM, Invincible said:

I would gladly prefer to be single than to marry a woman like that. One of the best ways a wife can show respect for her husband is to appreciate how hard he works to provide for her, no matter the income, and by contently living within their means.

Again, definitely agree. To me that kind of stress is toxic and also screws over your kids.

Lol if I ever get married, I hope my wife never turns into an Eva

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On 3/5/2017 at 6:44 PM, Invincible said:

Yes indeed. I believe it's called "princess complex." We always tell our daughters to know their worth and to never settle for anything less than a man who will cherish her with his entire being. Yet we don't often tell our sons the same. All we do is tell them how to respect women. We ought to be telling our daughters to respect men and treat us with dignity as well. It goes both ways. No one is entitled to a romantic partner simply for existing. In order to be worthy of someone great, they themselves need to be someone worth of being with. The sad thing is, I used to believe in that whole "princess complex" way of raising girls. But no more. If I ever have daughters, I will raise her with the same message as I would give my sons. Be the right person first, then you will attract the right person.

Well, you're right in that girls are not taught to treat boys with respect and dignity and as a result she continues with this attitude as a woman. I don't really know why parents instill this in their daughters, but I have some ideas:

- Both mum and dad teach this attitude to their daughter for her protection so she is tough on guys and they don't see her as an easy target. Sometimes when a girl is simply nice to a guy he can get the wrong idea - this can be a threat to a girl's safety if he turns out to be dangerous.

- It's commonly socially accepted that boys/teens/men can be sexually deviant and moral miscreants so parents approach the issue with a "they don't deserve respect" mentality.

- A neo-feminist approach whereby showing a male the basic human value of respect is somehow diminishing her gender and pandering to a misogynistic era of time.

Although raising daughters to "know their worth and not settling for anything less than a man who will cherish her with his entire being" I don't think is the problem. In fact, I would argue that this is what is needed and what is lacking. A good perception of her own self worth is necessary for her self-esteem and confidence and determines how much she will achieve in life; it is the "key to her success" if you will. It's the lacking of self worth which is why girls remain in abusive relationships or enter and remain in jobs where they are belittled and disrespected. A girl needs to be taught to have high standards but she must also be taught to meet those standards herself.

I think you're on the right path with 'princess complex' and think it stems from parent/s raising their daughters to believe that they're perfect and if anyone has a problem with you then it's their problem because you could never be wrong. This is so very damaging and makes the person incapable of functioning normally in society. This type of woman has two options: she will enter the real world, have a revelation of the difficulty and be molded to the standards of society because it's necessary for survival (e.g. she will be unable to maintain a job if she's unwilling to compromise or put other people's needs above her own so she will develop these qualities in order to make money) or she will be coddled for the rest of her life by her family, friends and husband never having to step out of her bubble therefore never having to come to the realisation that she is in fact no better than anyone else (In my opinion, this one requires significant financial wealth).

 

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4 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

Questions?   (If this is too irrelevant, let me know and I’ll delete it)

Everything is relevant.

4 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

This is not a simple disagreement/fight, she essentially thinks he is not good enough and sees him as a failure. She feels, disappointment, being let down, and is more than angry at him. Is Zac still going to have a desire to bone his wife, when things are this bad? Sure if it was just a normal couples’ quarrel but this is a lot different.

This also goes back to something @Naturally mentioned in a previous post about “taking care it”  yourself…I might have to change my opinion on that topic and a few others, after reading this scenario.

I’m asking b\c I don’t know if I would want to be bumping uglies with Eva, considering how she feels….I could be completely wrong as I have never been in that situation…But here is my guess…

I think my primary brain would say, “No way…Not interested in having sex with her. Her attitude is appalling for a lot of reasons.

Unfortunately, my male parts (aka secondary brain) have a mind of their own and it would be the antithesis of my primary brain. There are a lot of variables that would determine the outcome…too many to list haha.

The idea of a wife like Eva….and having sex with her is really confusing…hmmm much to think about

So a man who is made to feel inadequate outside the bedroom will have less desire to pursue his wife for intimacy inside the bedroom? Why do you think that is? do you think it's because he's emotionally hurt by her and it reflects his desire for her, or because he's just so deterred by her attitude/behaviour that he can't bring himself to become aroused by her, or because he wouldn't feel comfortable being vulnerable with her? (do men feel vulnerable during sex?) 

4 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

Conflict Resolution:   (I don’t think this is applicable per this scenario but I imagine it might look something like this?)

If both parties are, mature, appreciative, surrendering, and thoughtful, they should be able to work together to implement needed changes:

I think this preface to the conflict resolution is crucial. Unless both partners are willing to surrender their pride and selfish interests they will never reach a solution that will benefit the marriage and the annoyance and resentment will just compound fight after fight throughout the marriage.

4 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

True, however, there is another side to this. In college, one of my old jobs was 85% female and after college, in the corporate world I also worked with mainly women. I feel like I could write several books on what I’ve learned haha.  Many of them openly talked (not during work) about marrying their husbands out of convenience…just so they can have a family, felt outside pressure to marry, or others settled for a nice guy bc he fulfilled some of their emotional needs…e.g, not being alone, companionship, wanting to be loved

You're right. When I actually contemplate it, there still exists quite a lot of benefits to a married mother rather than single mother. I can understand why some women might marry for convenience but every fibre of my being is screaming DON'T DO IT!!! First and foremost it's not fair on the guy who thinks he's marrying for love, secondly she won't be genuinely happy, and third, after her children grow up the marriage will crumble because it was the kids holding her in the marriage. This has "disaster" written all over it.

4 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

Well then she should tell that baby to stop being so selfish and save some for daddy. And nothing is stopping Eva from flopping a tit out and letting her husband suckle away, now everyone can bond....although, probably not at the same time...that would be weird

(jk......on calling the baby selfish:D.....Although, I would have no problem sampling some breast milk...If I can drink an excretion that gets sucked out of a cows tit, then I should be able to sample hers)

Despite that endearing analogy, a breastfeeding mother may feel "touched out" by the end of the day and would rather sleep on the garage floor than in bed with her husband and risk being touched.

 

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On 3/1/2017 at 1:22 AM, Naturally said:

Although at home he says his wife throws tantrums calling him "selfish idiot" and calls his explanations for being away so much "bad excuses". Zac says Eva seems to genuinely believe that he would prefer to be away from her and their two kids and it's made her resent him.

My first practical advice would be to sit down together with thorough information on Zac's earnings, their household expenses, current and expected financial obligations (are they planning to have more kids? pay for college?) etc and nut out how much time Zac needs to spend at work to support their current lifestyle or a more thrifty lifestyle they are willing to accept (less/no luxury items, less holiday, second hand cars, hand me down clothes, shorter hot showers, etc). This should hopefully address whether or not there is an economic need for Zac's current working hours. You said that Zac has used his work to justify their drifting apart; this does not necessarily mean that he has worked more (unnecessarily) to avoid the home situation. But if he has, that is  something he should bring up. 

On 3/1/2017 at 1:22 AM, Naturally said:

As the sole breadwinner, working in a senior position in a field where his skills don't naturally translate to other professions, he’s having a hard time finding another job.

If he is in a senior position, does he have any long-service leave he can utilise to test the waters a little as to Eva's response to him being home more?

On 3/1/2017 at 1:22 AM, Naturally said:

At work, Zac feels people value his opinion and listen to what he has to say. ...his wife throws tantrums calling him "selfish idiot"...They haven't had sex in at least 14 months and if he brings it up she shuts him down immediately, saying something like "The way things are, I'm not at all interested in sex." Zac loves his current job....

In general, men primarily interpret love as respect. In polls, husbands would rather have their wives respect them than love them. [This can be hard for women to understand] The opposite is true for women, in general. Zac needs to explain that as much as he might like to stay home more and have a better relationship, his relational needs of respect, appreciation etc are not being met by her/at home. Currently, they are met more at work. If his efforts aren't paying off in the relationship where is he naturally more likely to seek his emotional/psychological needs? At work. As I mentioned elsewhere, too lopsided relationships are unsustainable. If their love tanks are too empty they need to work on filling each others up. That could involve committing to couple exercises such as: not saying anything negative/criticising each other for 21 continuous days (after each slip-up you start over), giving each other 3 specific, genuine, and nonrepetitive compliments each day, going on dates, devising a regimen/schedule of sexual and non-sexual touch that each commits to [if they haven't had sex/sexual contact in 14 months, 1ce every week/2 weeks is a lot better than nothing], unless there is an extraordinary (and pre-warned as much as possible) intervening situation e.g. period. 

On 3/1/2017 at 1:22 AM, Naturally said:

Zac loves his current job and doesn’t really want to start a new career in a new field, but he will do it if it means a secure income and a happier home life but he’s scared that it won't get better. Since they aren't romantic at all anymore (with the exception of a kiss goodnight or possibly a hug after a bad fight) he’s terrified that "the job issue" is just a placeholder for something much worse, that she doesn't love him anymore and that will become painfully obvious if he quit his job.

That is a very reasonable fear. Similar to how a neglected marriage *due to kids* doesn't have that excuse anymore when they leave home. This reminded me of, yes, you guessed it! Here it comes....: Berne's Games:

 *****

5 · IF IT WEREN’T FOR YOU

Briefly, a woman marries a domineering man so that he will restrict her
activities and thus keep her from getting into situations which frighten her. If this
were a simple operation, she might express her gratitude when he performed this
service for her. In the game of IWFY, however, her reaction is quite the opposite:
she takes advantage of the situation to complain about the restrictions, which
makes her spouse feel uneasy and gives her all sorts of advantages. This game is
the internal social advantage. The external social advantage is the derivative
pastime ‘If It Weren’t For Him’, which she plays with her congenial lady friends.

The most common game played between spouses is colloquially called ‘If It
Weren’t For You’, and this will be used to illustrate the characteristics of games in
general.
Mrs White complained that her husband severely restricted her social
activities, so that she had never learned to dance. Due to changes in her attitude
brought about by psychiatric treatment, her husband became less sure of himself
and more indulgent. Mrs White was then free to enlarge the scope of her
activities. She signed up for dancing classes, and then discovered to her despair
that she had a morbid fear of dance floors and had to abandon this project.
This unfortunate adventure, along with similar ones, laid bare some important
aspects of the structure of her marriage. Out of her many suitors she had picked
a domineering man for a husband. She was then in a position to complain that
she could do all sorts of things ‘if it weren’t for you’. Many of her women friends
also had domineering husbands, and when they met for their morning coffee,
they spent a good deal of time playing ‘If It Weren’t For Him’.
As it turned out, however, contrary to her complaints, her husband was
performing a very real service for her by forbidding her to do something she was
deeply afraid of, and by preventing her, in fact, from even becoming aware of her
fears. This was one reason her Child had shrewdly chosen such a husband.

***
 

Only in Eva's case it might be a "If it Weren't for Your Job". It can absolutely not be a game and be a genuine problem. However, if Eva isn't willing to work on their relationship with Zac's current job by e.g. the couple exercises above, it's a risk that merely changing jobs will improve things. Faithful in little; faithful in much and all that. Addressing that issue with her directly might be problematic. If she is knows she is merely using the job as an excuse she is unlikely to admit that were Zac to call her bluff. And there is little point to changing from a good job that he loves to a worse one just to have her find other excuses instead. I'd say Zac should look at the finances, if he actually needs his current job then he can bring that to her and state that rather than change jobs and risk not being able to live with the necessary change in lifestyle they can try pre-adapting. If she is not open or able to adapt then no point in changing jobs anyway. He can also bring up that there are things that they should work on (couple exercises/counseling etc) regardless of whether he changes jobs or not and see how responsive to that she is. If Zac discovers that he could change jobs without adaptation in lifestyle he can still bring up the relational work independently. However, you state that Zac realises he needs to make changes in order to be a better father. I guess he has to make up his mind whether he'll take a worse job simply to have more time with his kids regardless of whether that will improve his relationship with his wife. Unless he believes that if his relationship improved with his wife that would (without a job change) enable him to be a sufficiently good father....

On 3/1/2017 at 9:08 AM, PhotoGirl said:

Well, if he feels that she started pulling away after the second child then that indicates that, maybe, she is feeling overwhelmed. Possibly even suffering postpartum depression. This can make for a lot problems if it's not addressed. Also, it can be exacerbated by things like feeling left out. If she's alone with the kids all day, every day, because of his work, this could pose a problem.

On 3/2/2017 at 0:29 AM, Naturally said:

Because he said he started to see a change after kid number two I think it's safe to assume it's something to do with her getting wrapped up in her mummy identity coupled with him being away from her and their kids so often.

Excellent points. I'd be curious whether Zac is sufficiently showing his appreciation for Eva's mothering work. Maybe he should actively try building some bridges between her mother and wife roles. Is he making her feel sexy in/about her new role as mother to their children? To me a nurturing, loving dedicated mother is super sexy and feminine and I would be communicating that to my wife. 

 

On 3/1/2017 at 0:29 PM, Invincible said:

they haven't has sex in over a year?! :o That says to me the marriage isn't just rocky, it is on life support!

Apparently the definition for sexless marriage is  no more than 10 times a year.

On 3/2/2017 at 0:29 AM, Naturally said:
On 3/1/2017 at 3:41 AM, HeWhoWaits said:

I'd say they need counseling. 

Probably right, but if Zac isn't even home for much of the time, the lack of continuity of counselling would likely do little good. 

One on one counselling can be worthwhile. The therapist is in danger of getting a biased account but it could still be worth it. Even if he sends a list of question etc to Zac which he can then write/record while he is traveling around the place. How one spouse acts can have a big influence on the other. 

On 3/2/2017 at 0:29 AM, Naturally said:
On 3/1/2017 at 0:29 PM, Invincible said:

Your spouse is your partner for life, one whom you made a vow to devote your whole life to for better or worse. This is someone whom you have the most intimate physical and emotional bond with above every other relationship.

True, but a mother might feel that having a fetus grow inside her body for 9 months, exit her body after hours of pain, breastfeed exclusively from her body for 6 months is the most intimate physical and emotional bond unlike any other relationship she has had - including with her husband. I'm not saying it's right I'm just saying that it may very well be the prevailing view of many (majority of?) mothers in the world. As men never experience this, the majority of them probably think that a wife is with whom they will achieve the most intimate physical and emotional bond.

Exclusively?! Adult breastfeeding exists...http://forums.waitingtillmarriage.org/topic/4337-adult-nursingerotic-lactation/ . Sure it would be different. But wives can breastfeed their husbands, they can also discuss their deep fears, find a deep sense of knowing and acceptance in the marital relationship that might not be in the parent-child relationship. You have sex with your husband, you are the most vulnerable with your husband, he knows your flaws, shortcomings etc far more than your children. But again, Zac could actively try and get a bit more involved in that bond. Not just a mother to child but a parent couple to child bond. I'm just picturing them lying up against the bedhead/pillows, both topless, Zac's arm around Eva as she breastfeeds their baby and just basking in the beautiful nurturing act of breastfeeding and maybe stroking the babies head and kissing his wife now and again. Or just standing side by side with arms around each other watching their babies sleep.....

On 3/2/2017 at 0:29 AM, Naturally said:

A wife aware of the biological reasons behind her low libido might tend to her husband's needs with other forms of intimacy, but am I wrong to think that a year without sexual intercourse after having a child isn't that severe?

I'd say a year is too long. 

On 3/5/2017 at 0:16 PM, Naturally said:

They're a nuisance to society.

:lol: Where is @Dave1985 when you need him?

2 hours ago, Naturally said:

Everything is relevant.

Woohoo!

2 hours ago, Naturally said:

So a man who is made to feel inadequate outside the bedroom will have less desire to pursue his wife for intimacy inside the bedroom? Why do you think that is? do you think it's because he's emotionally hurt by her and it reflects his desire for her, or because he's just so deterred by her attitude/behaviour that he can't bring himself to become aroused by her, or because he wouldn't feel comfortable being vulnerable with her? (do men feel vulnerable during sex?) 

Making him feel inadequate is can be a form of disrespect. If respect is to man, as love is to woman, can you see how it might influence the bedroom too? If I don't feel vulnerable during sex I think I'll be doing something wrong....

2 hours ago, Naturally said:

there still exists quite a lot of benefits to a married mother rather than single mother. I can understand why some women might marry for convenience but every fibre of my being is screaming DON'T DO IT!!! First and foremost it's not fair on the guy who thinks he's marrying for love, secondly she won't be genuinely happy, and third, after her children grow up the marriage will crumble because it was the kids holding her in the marriage. This has "disaster" written all over it.

Short term desires over long-term consequences....

2 hours ago, Naturally said:

Despite that endearing analogy, a breastfeeding mother may feel "touched out" by the end of the day and would rather sleep on the floor in the garage than in bed and risk being touched by her husband.

True....

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1 minute ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:
On 2/28/2017 at 3:08 PM, PhotoGirl said:

Well, if he feels that she started pulling away after the second child then that indicates that, maybe, she is feeling overwhelmed. Possibly even suffering postpartum depression. This can make for a lot problems if it's not addressed. Also, it can be exacerbated by things like feeling left out. If she's alone with the kids all day, every day, because of his work, this could pose a problem.

On 3/1/2017 at 6:29 AM, Naturally said:

Because he said he started to see a change after kid number two I think it's safe to assume it's something to do with her getting wrapped up in her mummy identity coupled with him being away from her and their kids so often.

Excellent points. I'd be curious whether Zac is sufficiently showing his appreciation for Eva's mothering work. Maybe he should actively try building some bridges between her mother and wife roles. Is he making her feel sexy in/about her new role as mother to their children? To me a nurturing, loving dedicated mother is super sexy and feminine and I would be communicating that to my wife. 

I think you have a good point here, however...if it is, indeed, postpartum? She may need more than just reassurances and attention. She, most likely, needs some professional help, as this is a serious mental condition and can lead to a lot of physical problems.

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1 hour ago, PhotoGirl said:

I think you have a good point here, however...if it is, indeed, postpartum? She may need more than just reassurances and attention. She, most likely, needs some professional help, as this is a serious mental condition and can lead to a lot of physical problems.

Certainly! That stuff was just in general. Not intended to be a treatment of postpartum depression. I should have been clearer.

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On 3/6/2017 at 10:05 PM, Naturally said:

So a man who is made to feel inadequate outside the bedroom will have less desire to pursue his wife for intimacy inside the bedroom?

Per this scenario, I would think so?…I’m guessing b\c (thank God) I have never had to go through this when I was I a relationship.

On 3/6/2017 at 10:05 PM, Naturally said:

Why do you think that is?

1)      Same thing as any wife…If a husband expressed he thought she was a bad mother….His ass is on the couch. When you love a person, their opinion of you matters. If your dad said you’re a horrible daughter, that is going to hurt you way more than a stranger telling you that.

2)      And most definitely off put by her attitude!

On 3/6/2017 at 10:05 PM, Naturally said:

do men feel vulnerable during sex?

Hmm another loaded question...Sorry I don’t know for sure. I never did when I had sex, for the most part I was just happy and excited. I can only make guesses based upon observations. So here are my guesses:

Yes, I definitely think it’s possible.

1)  Vulnerability due to a lack of confidence- A man who is not confidant with himself, his body, or his image, will most likely be insecure and as a result feel vulnerable during sex.

She could reject him for the insecurities he worries about. IMO, I think this is a big reason why these men want a woman with the fewest number of sexual partners. They worry that her other partners might not have the things they are insecure about.

This fuels their fears about not being as pleasurable as the competition.  An experienced women will know what she likes, she will know what type of man pleasures her the best physically/emotionally, she can remember her best sex and the man she loved the most (this does not mean she will compare but can remember), and this is the ultimate form of vulnerability for an insecure man, that doubts himself.

Sure there are some guys that rationalize turning away an experienced women by spouting out religious content…if they’re Christian, it’s usually from the bible…Hmmm good thing Jesus does not have a similar attitude and turns us away, or we would all be in a lot of trouble…especially me. This is why I think in many cases, it’s a smoke screen to hide their insecurities. However, I did read very practical non-religious reasons on WTM from a Christian…and he made some good points.

I have witnessed couples where the man has a complete lack of confidence and seen it manifest itself in toxic ways. During difficult times in a relationship, you're not always able to have normal communication your SO, and an insecure man will need reassurance, attention, and validation during those times, burdening his SO with more stress.

A confident man is secure in himself and will see all the good qualities in a women. He wont need constant reassurance or be bothered by men from her past. He will hope they treated her well and he will focus on being the best he can be for her.

2)  Vulnerability through a lack of control- Feeling vulnerability might come with giving up control or not having control?

You can be confident but the moment you let yourself love someone, is the moment you just became vulnerable. You are now in a position to be hurt by your SO.

I think some people feel vulnerable during this phase, while others look at it differently and are excited to trust and love their SO.

 

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23 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

:lol: Where is @Dave1985 when you need him?

 

I'm right here! Those "princess" women are a nuisance to society. :P

On 3/6/2017 at 11:05 PM, Naturally said:

You're right. When I actually contemplate it, there still exists quite a lot of benefits to a married mother rather than single mother. I can understand why some women might marry for convenience but every fibre of my being is screaming DON'T DO IT!!! First and foremost it's not fair on the guy who thinks he's marrying for love, secondly she won't be genuinely happy, and third, after her children grow up the marriage will crumble because it was the kids holding her in the marriage. This has "disaster" written all over it.

Wait? What? A female proving me right?! :P

Did I mention that the women who marry for convenience aren't attracted to their husbands, and this is why we have sexless marriages, and why women file for divorce in the overwhelming majority of cases? Just need time to let their resentment grow... The astronomical divorce rate, as far as I am concerned can be 100% attributed to predatory females, a system that is biased in favor of the wife, and divorce courts that are biased in favor of the women. If you get the women realizing that marriage is a benefit to them even if they don't like their husband, and that the system allows them to file "no fault" divorces in a court system that is biased in their favor, it's a small miracle that the divorce rate is as low as it is.  That's also why so many women have a hard time finding husbands. The guys are getting leery after ~50 years of being treated as disposable by the women and their divorce court system. If they are OK with the thought of premarital sex, there is literally no benefit whatsoever to being married.

Let's do a little basic math here. If we believe the official numbers, the divorce rate is 50%. If we believe the official numbers, the rate of "sexless marriage" (less than 10 times a year) is around 20%.

So 50% of the men out there have lost out in the arrangement. Of the remaining 50%, 20% are stuck in sexless marriages... So 80% of the 50% are still married and still having a sexual relationship at least 10 times per year...

That means if you have 100 couples, 50 will be divorced. Of the remaining 50 married men, 10 of them are having sex less than 10 times per year, and only 40 of them are having sex more than 10 times per year.

That means that for a guy who is thinking about getting married, he has a 40% chance of staying married and having sex more than once a month. These are absolutely terrible odds.

Or to put it in financial terms for the men...

If you get married, your $500/month apartment just won't do for your wife. You need to mortgage the next 25+ years of your life and financial well being to buy a house that costs $80,000-$250,000. There is a 50% chance that you will wind up divorced, in which case, you will lose the house. If you have kids, there is a high chance that the ex-wife will use them as pawns against you, while the feminist divorce court system decides how much child support you should be paying. There is a 40% chance that this added expense and massive risk will get you sex once a month. Is it worth the risk?

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On 3/6/2017 at 3:52 PM, StarGate SG1 said:

True, however, there is another side to this. In college, one of my old jobs was 85% female and after college, in the corporate world I also worked with mainly women. I feel like I could write several books on what I’ve learned haha.  Many of them openly talked (not during work) about marrying their husbands out of convenience…just so they can have a family, felt outside pressure to marry, or others settled for a nice guy bc he fulfilled some of their emotional needs…e.g, not being alone, companionship, wanting to be loved

Oh gosh, I hate it when people do this. As @Naturally pointed out, not only are these women using these men for their own selfish ends, they are also selling themselves short by settling. Look, I get it. Many women feel their biological clock ticking. But for the good of humanity, do not let that mess with your heads. No one should settle and no one deserves to be settled for. If you settle for a guy you don't actually love, you will come to unfairly resent him later on for things that aren't his fault. The short term benefits is not worth the life of misery. This is actually one of my biggest fears of getting in relationships. I never ever want a women to settle for me. I will constantly be on the look out for red flags. If I ever got the sense she was settling, I'm bailing. I didn't wait all these years to be stuck marrying a woman who doesn't truly love me.

 

On 3/6/2017 at 8:05 PM, Naturally said:

So a man who is made to feel inadequate outside the bedroom will have less desire to pursue his wife for intimacy inside the bedroom? Why do you think that is? do you think it's because he's emotionally hurt by her and it reflects his desire for her, or because he's just so deterred by her attitude/behaviour that he can't bring himself to become aroused by her, or because he wouldn't feel comfortable being vulnerable with her? (do men feel vulnerable during sex?) 

On 3/6/2017 at 10:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

In general, men primarily interpret love as respect. In polls, husbands would rather have their wives respect them than love them. [This can be hard for women to understand] The opposite is true for women, in general. Zac needs to explain that as much as he might like to stay home more and have a better relationship, his relational needs of respect, appreciation etc are not being met by her/at home. Currently, they are met more at work. If his efforts aren't paying off in the relationship where is he naturally more likely to seek his emotional/psychological needs? At work. As I mentioned elsewhere, too lopsided relationships are unsustainable. If their love tanks are too empty they need to work on filling each others up. That could involve committing to couple exercises such as: not saying anything negative/criticising each other for 21 continuous days (after each slip-up you start over), giving each other 3 specific, genuine, and nonrepetitive compliments each day, going on dates, devising a regimen/schedule of sexual and non-sexual touch that each commits to [if they haven't had sex/sexual contact in 14 months, 1ce every week/2 weeks is a lot better than nothing], unless there is an extraordinary (and pre-warned as much as possible) intervening situation e.g. period. 

Bearded One very eloquently explains this one. Contrary to popular belief, sex isn't a man's biggest need. It is respect. Our sense of self can be just as fragile as a woman's albeit in a different way. As such, there is no other person in his life who's respect, or lack thereof, can influence a man's emotional well being as that of his wife's. Seriously, many women don't realize how much power and influence she has over their husbands. A man's biggest cheerleader is his wife and by giving him respect, that can encourage him to reach his greatest potential and be the best man he could possibly. On the other hand, she could also be the bane of his existence. If she were to disrespect him constantly, he will feel like the worst failure in the world and he will shut down emotionally. He is not going to feel any incentive for intimacy in or out of the bedroom. I mean, she has made him to feel like a failure outside of the bedroom. What could possibly make him believe she will be any different in bed?

Yes sex can be quite a vulnerable experience for a man. Why? Because every decent man has at some point or another contemplated whether he will be good enough to satisfy his wife in bed. If she isn't enjoying it or not enjoying it as much as with a previous man, then that could be a huge blow to a man's confidence. With men, it's easy to get us aroused and to orgasm. But with women it's a much more complicated process. We want to feel like we have what it takes to sexually satisfy a woman in bed.

 

On 3/6/2017 at 10:23 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Apparently the definition for sexless marriage is  no more than 10 times a year.

Oh gosh...kill me now. My definition of a sexless marriage is anything less than at least once a week. lol

 

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15 minutes ago, Invincible said:

Oh gosh, I hate it when people do this. As @Naturally pointed out, not only are these women using these men for their own selfish ends, they are also selling themselves short by settling. Look, I get it. Many women feel their biological clock ticking. But for the good of humanity, do not let that mess with your heads. No one should settle and no one deserves to be settled for. If you settle for a guy you don't actually love, you will come to unfairly resent him later on for things that aren't his fault. The short term benefits is not worth the life of misery. This is actually one of my biggest fears of getting in relationships. I never ever want a women to settle for me. I will constantly be on the look out for red flags. If I ever got the sense she was settling, I'm bailing. I didn't wait all these years to be stuck marrying a woman who doesn't truly love me.

Agreed. I wouldn't want to be with a woman who is "settling" for me. I just don't know if I'd be able to tell the difference. Granted, I have a pretty good track record (I was able to immediately identify the pathological liar who did so much damage to me), but it's still asking me to be 100% guarded and not fall for an act... I don't really know if I can do it.

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