Naturally

Virgin Therapists: What would you do?

55 posts in this topic

On 2/19/2017 at 8:49 PM, Naturally said:

ALTHOUGH, putting myself in Jane's position, I can kind of understand why she would, in the first instance, ask Adam if he would still come to her event rather than trying to restore the relationship at that moment. Hear me out... Jane knows she's been neglectful, Jane knows she's hurt him, Jane knows he has every right to be angry, and Jane knows she has no right to be asking him to do something for her when she has done little to consider him in the last two months. Her lack of consideration for their relationship over the last 2 months is so blatantly obvious to the both of them that Jane wouldn't have the audacity to try and repair the relationship on the day of her event because it would be patronizing Adam to act all "lovey" suddenly. She will appear false and not genuine in her desire to repair the relationship and only interested because she has an ulterior motive - which is to get him to come to her event.

Wouldn't Adam feel like Jane is being false if she tried to repair their relationship the day of? Wouldn't he be suspicious that she only wants to 'make up' now for appearances sake? (even though it's not for appearances but rather because it would mean a lot to have him there) Therefore, asking Adam straight out if he would still come to her event would be less patronizing and less insulting to his intelligence. She can then work on restoring the relationship tomorrow when Adam knows she has no ulterior motive and would therefore appear that she genuinely wants to repair the situation. What are your thoughts on this?

You are right. If she started the day of suddenly being nice it could raise suspicions of manipulation. This however, raises another issue, how much do we have to ensure our actions couldn't be interpreted as manipulative? If she has a history, then certainly, but I'd like to think that if she has a good history then Adam could accept that she has come to the realisation today to restore the relationship (enough is enough) regardless of whether he comes to the event or not. I guess only past similar instances and belief in her non-manipulativeness would influence that. If she tries to restore the relationship the day of, Adam rejects, but she still continues to try and restore the relationship he may not think it was intended to be manipulative and he may not treat it as being manipulative should such a coincidence occur in the future. 

However, there have been 2-3 days before the day of the event where Jane could have raised the issue of needing to restore the relationship and perhaps explicitly state at that point that it has nothing to do with whether he comes to the event or not. Sure, even then he could suspect an ulterior motive but that is the best she can do, I think. Otherwise they potentially go to the event, privately unreconciled and hostile yet publicly "fine". Or if she doesn't even try and reconcile the day of, he might not go. They reconcile shortly after and he regrets not going. I think her best option is to aim for restoration of the relationship as soon as can regardless of coincidences. If she has a good history, I'd think there are good chances that Adam will accept it as non-manipulative.

On 2/19/2017 at 8:49 PM, Naturally said:

Although I doubt I'd have the confidence to say to my husband something like "Please let me tie your tie" when I know he's angry with me. Perhaps it's the fear of rejection...

Which is why I didn't phrase it as a question. If you phrase it as a question, he needs to give a response: yes [great], no [what do you do now? you've asked so obviously you should respect his response...but you've been prevented from demonstrating affection], silence [what do you do now? you've been blocked by non-engagement to go ahead and do it anyway might seem patronising?? Like he can't choose the right answer so you just do it like a mother...? I'm not sure]. I'd say just state "Please let me tie your tie" and go for it, ignore his anger/reticence. If he tries to block you or push your hands away, get physical "YOU WILL LET ME LOVE YOU! I love you and this marriage too much to let your or my stubbornness get in the way. It's gone on too long already. If you don't want to come tonight, so be it. But I will fight for our happiness whether you like it or not because it's worth it!" *calming breath* kiss him somewhere if he is sufficiently shocked and still frozen and walk away [better yet, hand him his packed lunch!]. :lol::lol: Geez sometimes I scare myself! How controlling and manipulative am I?! :blink: haha....*sigh*

 

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This thread has been hanging around for four months. This is quite a specific "hypothetical" situation.

It sounds like it may have been based on something real. It's been four months, if it is based on real life how did it turn out? How did they get through the situation?

Is this person a workaholic who always puts work ahead of their relationships to where this situation will constantly come up or is this a one time super special situation that will never again get in the way of their marriage?

 

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10 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

This however, raises another issue, how much do we have to ensure our actions couldn't be interpreted as manipulative?

History would definitely dictate but I think In this scenario it might just be a question of common sense.

10 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

but I'd like to think that if she has a good history then Adam could accept that she has come to the realisation today to restore the relationship (enough is enough) regardless of whether he comes to the event or not. 

Little naive don't you think? She had two months to come to the realisation; 60 days to realise, multiple arguments to realise, no physical intimacy to realise, days in silent treatment to realise, 3 nights sleeping alone in her bed to realise but no, the day when she requires something of him, that's when she realises. Really?

10 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

However, there have been 2-3 days before the day of the event where Jane could have raised the issue of needing to restore the relationship and perhaps explicitly state at that point that it has nothing to do with whether he comes to the event or not. Sure, even then he could suspect an ulterior motive but that is the best she can do, I think. Otherwise they potentially go to the event, privately unreconciled and hostile yet publicly "fine". Or if she doesn't even try and reconcile the day of, he might not go. They reconcile shortly after and he regrets not going. I think her best option is to aim for restoration of the relationship as soon as can regardless of coincidences. If she has a good history, I'd think there are good chances that Adam will accept it as non-manipulative.

I agree that trying to repair 2-3 days prior would have helped her appear more genuine and while her motive still exists i'd argue that it would not be the focus especially since 2-3 days prior is when they had the big blow out so she could've approached him with the perceived intent of addressing the big fight they had and in the process address her neglect of the relationship as a whole (they are after all linked).

10 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

"But I will fight for our happiness whether you like it or not because it's worth it!"

 Que shutdown response from him: "And why weren't you fighting for the last two months!? Why wasn't it worth fighting for before today!? Where were you when I was fighting for our happiness over the last two months!? You didn't care about our happiness then, why should I care now!?!"

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I love reading what if scenarios! They really help you in current relationships and/or prepare for future ones. Thanks for sharing this and keep them coming! 

First, I’ll answer this as if i was talking to Adam because I most likely would never let things get to the point of us ignoring each other. Second, I’ll share some personal insight/experience. 

Answer to Adam:  Before you 100% support Jane, go rub out as many as it takes for you to stop, being selfish and horrendously inconsiderate.

Why support Jane and how is Adam being a dick? (I mentioned this in one of your other threads @Naturally :)…Sorry if I sound like a broken record)

1)      PASSIONATE GIVING is a MUST in a relationship/marriage!  In short, it means you love giving, you’re excited and can’t wait to give, and think about being the best you can be when giving. This includes emotional, spiritual, financial, physical, and any other supportive ways, during the good times and bad. In this scenario, by going he is supporting her emotional needs, end of story.

     2)   Jane is sleeping 4 to 5 hrs a day. She only has time for sleep and if you want anything else from her, you’re being disturbingly selfish, grossly inconsiderate, demanding, and immature. And 3 days before her big day and he carelessly gets into an argument. He’s a dick for adding more stress.

Personal experience:

Before I start, this is all under the notion of normal life hardships, challenges, and struggles. This does not include obvious situations like bereavement, grief, tragedy, time constraints, or mental illness.

I have to agree with @Dave1985 but for different reasons. 

On 10/22/2016 at 7:21 PM, Dave1985 said:

I would also like to think that I would be able to screen women like that out

During the screening process lol, she has to be a passionate giver in her life. Then I am going to find out how she views sex. Does she view sex for 1) procreative purposes only? 2) Emotional only? Or 3) for physical pleasure, procreation, and emotional? 

Personally, for me she has to view sex as option 3. I can’t commit the rest of my life to someone with whom I am not compatible with. 

So if she's a passionate giver and views sex like option 3, then to say things like "I'm not in the mood" to have sex is a MAJOR cop-out… That is an excuse, not a reason. Personally, I don’t think you should marry someone that has to be in the mood to do something nice for you. Sexually or non-sexually. Let’s apply that logic for a minute outside the bedroom and then back to sex. 

For example, my ex’s old job was stressing her out so bad it was effecting her health and it was awful. For 6 months she worked 70 hrs a week, rotating hours, they cut her pay, which was bad bc she was already low income.

So what did I do? I Went over to her house every day and cleaned b/c she had roommates that did 0 cleaning and she could not stand having a messy, gross house. So I vacuumed, cleaned the bathrooms, mopped the floors, took out the trash, did all her laundry, fed her cats/dog, cleaned out small mountains of cat poop fr the litter boxes, picked up more poop in the back yard from her dog, cooked her favorite meals dinner, brought her favorite food to her for lunch while she was at work, drew a bath for her before she got home, gave her massages….I could keep going but the point is, you should never have to be in the mood to do something nice for your SO. You SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN THE MOOD TO DO NICE AND THOUGHTFUL THINGS FOR THEM.

Typically (not always), if someone says they have to be it the mood, chances are: 1) They’ve never had sex in a long-term, committed relationship and they don't know that’s not true or 2) They’ve realized they can use that excuse as a manipulative tactic to get what they want. 

Whether your husband or wife needs you for a release or to make love, a passionate giver will love to give during good times and bad. Again this also applies = outside the bedroom.

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6 hours ago, Naturally said:

Little naive don't you think? She had two months to come to the realisation; 60 days to realise, multiple arguments to realise, no physical intimacy to realise, days in silent treatment to realise, 3 nights sleeping alone in her bed to realise but no, the day when she requires something of him, that's when she realises. Really?

I prefer the term "innocent" fyi :superwaiter::P

6 hours ago, Naturally said:

so she could've approached him with the perceived intent of addressing the big fight they had and in the process address her neglect of the relationship as a whole (they are after all linked).

Certainly, though I don't remember there being anything on her accepting her part in the neglect....[something that my last reply brushed over too...]

6 hours ago, Naturally said:
16 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

"But I will fight for our happiness whether you like it or not because it's worth it!"

 Que shutdown response from him: "And why weren't you fighting for the last two months!? Why wasn't it worth fighting for before today!? Where were you when I was fighting for our happiness over the last two months!? You didn't care about our happiness then, why should I care now!?!"

You are so right! I wrote this response with only the last 3 days in mind...[don't ask me why] But as I mentioned above, does she see the last two months "her" problem? Or does she treat it like it shouldn't be a bit issue that he's blowing it out of proportion, but the 3 days of ignoring each other are...sounds a little unlikely even to naive ol' me! haha

This is where she breaks down crying, saying she's so sorry for not listening to him, and thanking him for fighting for their happiness over the last two months even though she wouldn't listen, and promising to be more attentive and a better listener in the future....And they lived happily ever after *cough cough*

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9 hours ago, HeWhoWaits said:

It sounds like it may have been based on something real. It's been four months, if it is based on real life how did it turn out? How did they get through the situation?

It actually wasn't. Some of the behaviours and attitudes were inspired by my friends/their spouses as well as being loosely based on an episode of a Brazilian soap opera.

3 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

Answer to Adam:  Before you 100% support Jane, go rub out as many as it takes for you to stop, being selfish and horrendously inconsiderate.

When men are sexually frustrated, would you say this drive overpowers their ability for rational thinking?

3 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

1)      PASSIONATE GIVING is a MUST in a relationship/marriage!  In short, it means you love giving, you’re excited and can’t wait to give, and think about being the best you can be when giving. This includes emotional, spiritual, financial, physical, and any other supportive ways, during the good times and bad. In this scenario, by going he is supporting her emotional needs, end of story.

     2)   Jane is sleeping 4 to 5 hrs a day. She only has time for sleep and if you want anything else from her, you’re being disturbingly selfish, grossly inconsiderate, demanding, and immature. And 3 days before her big day and he carelessly gets into an argument. He’s a dick for adding more stress.

As a woman I looooove your answers. Putting myself in Jane's position, reading this made me feel instantly less stressed and relaxed. BUT, I think on another thread we're debating how long until withholding is considered abusive. Wouldn't 2 months be considered a pretty long time?

2 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

This is where she breaks down crying, saying she's so sorry for not listening to him, and thanking him for fighting for their happiness over the last two months even though she wouldn't listen, and promising to be more attentive and a better listener in the future....And they lived happily ever after *cough cough*

Would a wife crying make the husband adopt a more softer, understanding, willing to forgive approach towards his wife or would he just feel manipulated?

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2 hours ago, Naturally said:

When men are sexually frustrated, would you say this drive overpowers their ability for rational thinking?

Hmmm...another excellent question. If you don't mind me asking, what is your background? How are you so intuitive/insightful? Are you a counselor/therapist of some kind or in school to be one? Anyway, to answer your question... depends on the guy for sure. For example:

A) Some men definitely begin to lose basic cognitive reasoning skills and probably look a lot like apes....trying to shove a square peg in a circular hole :blink:

B ) While others get really moody, AKA male PMS....Yeah I fall into this category...My sexual frustrating definitely results in male PMS for sure... Hey what can I say? I guess can't help it anymore than a girl can help having her period :lol:

2 hours ago, Naturally said:

As a woman I looooove your answers.

Awww thanks :) Glad you enjoyed reading them ***hugs from America***

2 hours ago, Naturally said:

Putting myself in Jane's position, reading this made me feel instantly less stressed and relaxed.

Are you currently going through something similar??? Yikes, I probably should of thought about that, before I started calling "Adam" a dick.

If so, please don't marry a guy who is not passionate for you. Date them,have fun with them, enjoy their company, then message me and I'll marry youB) (please say yes, please say yes, please say yes...haha I'm only 30% joking......haha:lol:) Anyway, I can promise you'll regret marring a person who is only passionate for them self.

Hmmm that is not the thread I was referring to, this is the one: "Your pleasure = Spouse's responsibility?" Without having any back info on the withholding thing you're talking about........OMG 2 months :o You'd have to of cheated big time for that to happen or really done something awful...Yikes...Can't say for sure though as i never read it.

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6 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

If you don't mind me asking, what is your background? How are you so intuitive/insightful? Are you a counselor/therapist of some kind or in school to be one? 

I'm flattered that my incessant, trivial, convoluted prattling could be perceived as intuitive and insightful, so thank you for that. I have a science background, but truth is I'm just really curious about people's thought processes and I'm always trying to dig under the veneer of superficialities, façades, and pleasantries to discover the insecurities, fears, emotions, and idiosyncrasies people try so hard to mask.

6 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

....trying to shove a square peg in a circular hole :blink:.

lol thanks for the visual.

6 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

depends on the guy for sure. For example:

A) Some men definitely begin to lose basic cognitive reasoning skills and probably look a lot like apes....trying to shove a square peg in a circular hole :blink:

B ) While others get really moody, AKA male PMS....Yeah I fall into this category...My sexual frustrating definitely results in male PMS for sure... Hey what can I say? I guess can't help it anymore than a girl can help having her period :lol:

I'm going off on a tangent here but bear with me. Ostensibly, rape is a desire for power rather than a need for sex. I'm not trying to make you explain the mind of a rapist here but rather that of a normal guy... What stops a normal guy who is craving sex going out and acquiring sex forcibly? Is it the fear of getting caught, the respect for a woman's autonomy, shame on your family? If men who are sexually frustrated experience a lowering of their rational thinking what prevents them from making irrational decisions?

6 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

Are you currently going through something similar??? Yikes, I probably should of thought about that, before I started calling "Adam" a dick.

If so, please don't marry a guy who is not passionate for you. Date them,have fun with them, enjoy their company, then message me and I'll marry youB) (please say yes, please say yes, please say yes...haha I'm only 30% joking......haha:lol:

LOL! no completely theoretical.

Take me travelling through the cosmos with Stargate and then I'll consider it ;)

6 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

Awww thanks :) Glad you enjoyed reading them ***hugs from America***

 

hug.gif

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20 minutes ago, Naturally said:

I'm flattered that my incessant, trivial, convoluted prattling could be perceived as intuitive and insightful, so thank you for that. I have a science background, but truth is I'm just really curious about people's thought processes and I'm always trying to dig under the veneer of superficialities, façades, and pleasantries to discover the insecurities, fears, emotions, and idiosyncrasies people try so hard to mask.

I second StarGate's sentiment. Your threads are not trivial or incessant in the slightest. They are definitely convoluted though, which is actually a good thing. Relationships are complicated by nature and we should never shy away from these real world issues. We may have to deal with the same situations one day so it's best to get all the insight we can get from each other. Your threads carry lots of depth and I always look forward to whatever you have to say. You also helped a great deal in bringing back life into this dead forum. lol.

 

25 minutes ago, Naturally said:

I'm going off on a tangent here but bear with me. Ostensibly, rape is a desire for power rather than a need for sex. I'm not trying to make you explain the mind of a rapist here but rather that of a normal guy... What stops a normal guy who is craving sex going out and acquiring sex forcibly? Is it the fear of getting caught, the respect for a woman's autonomy, shame on your family? If men who are sexually frustrated experience a lowering of their rational thinking what prevents them from making irrational decisions?

An everyday, normal and decent guy would never rape a girl regardless if he would never be caught or for any reason. What stops him is because he considers women to be fellow human beings equally worthy of dignity and respect. Only evil men rape because they are sick in the head. 

But it is true that sexual frustration does lead men to experience a drastic change in his mood. Usually it is manifested in anxiousness, depression and a lack of self-esteem. At least that is how I feel. While it may distort our minds and occasionally make us do irrational things to douse the flames of passion so to speak, we are not so enslaved to our carnal desires that we are reduced to a Neanderthal who will end up doing something illegal. We are human after all and while we are imperfect, we do have basic self control. lol.

Here is an analogy that you can perhaps relate to as a woman. Women have a deep desire to feel loved and cherished by a man. For some women, that loneliness can be so extreme that sometimes may lead her to do things she normally wouldn't do. That includes getting into relationships with the wrong kind of man since in her mind, bad attention is better than no attention. Other times she may casually flirt to get the attention of male friends she isn't actually interested in. I know this because of personal experience. smh.

 

6 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

I'll marry youB) (please say yes, please say yes, please say yes...haha I'm only 30% joking......haha:lol:) Anyway, I can promise you'll regret marring a person who is only passionate for them self.

47 minutes ago, Naturally said:

Take me travelling through the cosmos with Stargate and then I'll consider it ;)

StarGate and Naturally sitting in a tree....making out.....

 

 

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A lot of this probably boils down to, did you sign up for this?

Did you know going in that the person's job/career was the most important thing in their life and did you know that on many occasions your marriage was going to be 100% neglected for months at a time for the sake of some job? If so, than I suppose this shouldn't be an issue. I suppose someone similar should sign up for this marriage as they themselves probably also lose themselves and their life in their own job so each person can just sign off from their marriage and lose themselves in their jobs, each ok with just ignoring the other.

If they didn't sign up for this and they went into this believing the ranking of life priorities was something like God, Spouse then Job than they are probably going to have big issues. Did the spouse suddenly change their life priorities, something like a bait and switch? Did the spouse tell the other what to expect and they just didn't hear it or did the spouse change the family priorities between work and family without ok'ing it with the other?

I'd say if you decide to abandon your marriage partner for two months and decide to basically become a cold stranger who barely interacts with your spouse for two months just so you can have success at your job than the other spouse needs to be debriefed on this ahead of time and they need to be on board with it.

I haven't heard too many stories of people looking back on their lives, when old, having regrets about not giving up everything enough to push one more rung further into their careers, but rather, the people they didn't see enough, the things they didn't say or tell to loved ones, all of the people they loved but didn't see enough or the people they never saw again because of some long ago quarrel. I don't think I've ever heard of people looking back and regretting that they didn't abandon all those they loved so they could become more successful with their jobs.

That being said, I can't say I can relate much to a scenario in which one spouse just up and shuts off from a marriage for two months just because their jobs wants them too. It sounds like they are in the wrong job.

If the one spouse knew this going in and is ok with it than I suppose it may work. If not I'd say the two will divorce at some point if this job continues to ruin their marriage. I doubt most marriages can last when the priorities are 1. Work...2. Marriage rather than 1. Marriage 2. Work.

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ps - If I was married and lived in the same house as my wife but basically didn't see her or talk to her for two months things would have come to a head looooong before the day of this project dinner.

I'd probably think I married the wrong person if the love of a job was so easily able to cause them to abandon the marriage.

I believe you said "it was only temporary". Bull. This wouldn't be a one time thing. How naïve. It would continue to happen as long as this job was held.

This is why I always marvel that women so easily marry soldiers. They get shipped off for 6 months at a time....a year at a time and maybe they see them again.....one day, if they aren't killed. I'd NEVER marry someone in the military in which this could happen. I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole, yet I'm always seeing stories on the news about  soldiers coming home and surprising their wives and kids. Women marry soldiers all the time. I don't really get it.

Too many people on planet Earth to settle for that type of situation.

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16 hours ago, Naturally said:

I'm just really curious about people's thought processes and I'm always trying to dig under the veneer of superficialities, façades, and pleasantries to discover the insecurities, fears, emotions, and idiosyncrasies people try so hard to mask.

I love it! great answer and so am I :)

16 hours ago, Naturally said:

lol thanks for the visual.

This about sums it up pretty well:

Image result for shoving a square peg circular hole ecard

 

16 hours ago, Naturally said:

Ostensibly, rape is a desire for power rather than a need for sex. I'm not trying to make you explain the mind of a rapist here but rather that of a normal guy... What stops a normal guy who is craving sex going out and acquiring sex forcibly? Is it the fear of getting caught, the respect for a woman's autonomy, shame on your family? If men who are sexually frustrated experience a lowering of their rational thinking what prevents them from making irrational decisions?

Hmm I think you might have answered this in your own question. A normal guy who craves sex, does not have a need for violent, dominating power. The thought of rape makes us as impotent as those guys in cialis commercials.

I would also add it is the same reason why you just don't take whatever it is you want. As a human you have a moral compass, a sense of empathy, love, and compassion that tells us right from wrong.

 

16 hours ago, Naturally said:

LOL! no completely theoretical.

Take me travelling through the cosmos with Stargate and then I'll consider it ;)

Ok good, that was a classic example of not thinking before I spoke.

Sweet, I'm breaking into the warehouses where they keep the stargate and taking one!:lol: Layer up because it can get cold out there in the universe

 

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On 2/24/2017 at 7:42 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

I love reading what if scenarios! They really help you in current relationships and/or prepare for future ones. Thanks for sharing this and keep them coming! 

First, I’ll answer this as if i was talking to Adam because I most likely would never let things get to the point of us ignoring each other. Second, I’ll share some personal insight/experience. 

Answer to Adam:  Before you 100% support Jane, go rub out as many as it takes for you to stop, being selfish and horrendously inconsiderate.

Why support Jane and how is Adam being a dick? (I mentioned this in one of your other threads @Naturally :)…Sorry if I sound like a broken record)

1)      PASSIONATE GIVING is a MUST in a relationship/marriage!  In short, it means you love giving, you’re excited and can’t wait to give, and think about being the best you can be when giving. This includes emotional, spiritual, financial, physical, and any other supportive ways, during the good times and bad. In this scenario, by going he is supporting her emotional needs, end of story.

     2)   Jane is sleeping 4 to 5 hrs a day. She only has time for sleep and if you want anything else from her, you’re being disturbingly selfish, grossly inconsiderate, demanding, and immature. And 3 days before her big day and he carelessly gets into an argument. He’s a dick for adding more stress.

Personal experience:

Before I start, this is all under the notion of normal life hardships, challenges, and struggles. This does not include obvious situations like bereavement, grief, tragedy, time constraints, or mental illness.

I have to agree with @Dave1985 but for different reasons. 

During the screening process lol, she has to be a passionate giver in her life. Then I am going to find out how she views sex. Does she view sex for 1) procreative purposes only? 2) Emotional only? Or 3) for physical pleasure, procreation, and emotional? 

Personally, for me she has to view sex as option 3. I can’t commit the rest of my life to someone with whom I am not compatible with. 

So if she's a passionate giver and views sex like option 3, then to say things like "I'm not in the mood" to have sex is a MAJOR cop-out… That is an excuse, not a reason. Personally, I don’t think you should marry someone that has to be in the mood to do something nice for you. Sexually or non-sexually. Let’s apply that logic for a minute outside the bedroom and then back to sex. 

For example, my ex’s old job was stressing her out so bad it was effecting her health and it was awful. For 6 months she worked 70 hrs a week, rotating hours, they cut her pay, which was bad bc she was already low income.

So what did I do? I Went over to her house every day and cleaned b/c she had roommates that did 0 cleaning and she could not stand having a messy, gross house. So I vacuumed, cleaned the bathrooms, mopped the floors, took out the trash, did all her laundry, fed her cats/dog, cleaned out small mountains of cat poop fr the litter boxes, picked up more poop in the back yard from her dog, cooked her favorite meals dinner, brought her favorite food to her for lunch while she was at work, drew a bath for her before she got home, gave her massages….I could keep going but the point is, you should never have to be in the mood to do something nice for your SO. You SHOULD ALWAYS BE IN THE MOOD TO DO NICE AND THOUGHTFUL THINGS FOR THEM.

Typically (not always), if someone says they have to be it the mood, chances are: 1) They’ve never had sex in a long-term, committed relationship and they don't know that’s not true or 2) They’ve realized they can use that excuse as a manipulative tactic to get what they want. 

Whether your husband or wife needs you for a release or to make love, a passionate giver will love to give during good times and bad. Again this also applies = outside the bedroom.

To me your post seems a little contradictory. You get up Adam for not giving passionately but Jane gets of scott free?? Is a job [which economically, they probably don't need to justify such a level of stress and withdrawal from the marriage; it is fully her "choice"] a good enough reason not to be measured against the same standard? I'm all for passionate giving, but unless you are getting your "love tank" filled somewhere (God, friends, family) at a point, passionate giving will become unsustainable and due to a lack of boundaries you will be enabling your own abuse.

You may argue that passionate giving for 2 months without any receiving [apart from extra $ which he probably doesn't value enough] isn't too long, but you haven't even suggested a healthy timeframe to unreciprocated passionate giving.... 

On 2/24/2017 at 2:15 PM, StarGate SG1 said:

Without having any back info on the withholding thing you're talking about........OMG 2 months :o You'd have to of cheated big time for that to happen or really done something awful...Yikes...Can't say for sure though as i never read it.

Not sure if you're getting the scenarios mixed up. The withholding for 2 months is in this scenario....

On 2/24/2017 at 11:12 AM, Naturally said:

As a woman I looooove your answers. Putting myself in Jane's position, reading this made me feel instantly less stressed and relaxed.

Unless we aren't holding Jane to the same standard, why would this make you less stressed? As Jane you have utterly failed to live up to this standard. Am I missing something? :huh:

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On 2/24/2017 at 11:12 AM, Naturally said:

Would a wife crying make the husband adopt a more softer, understanding, willing to forgive approach towards his wife or would he just feel manipulated?

While it seems a valid question. Allow me to suggest that it isn't because answering it shouldn't change much if anything. 

Are you going to try and suppress your need to cry if you think your husband might find it manipulative? Unless you hide it perfectly, might it not have the same effect? If you are not crying when you want to, I'd say you are doing your husband a disservice because it is a valuable indicator of your state of mind. You are being real with him. That is a way of showing respect.

Unless I'm really into/lost in the confrontation (in which case I might be tempted to try and keep pushing through regardless of tears), my wife starting to cry indicates a break is most likely needed - or a significant slowing down. She is overwhelmed. Rational argumentation at that point is likely fruitless. At this point emotional probing and empathising is probably best. Once things have calmed down, we can revisit the issue.

If you cry in order to manipulate him. Well, not supporting that! If I detect my wife doing that, boy oh boy girl oh girl you better backpedal something fierce because I will either be eating your face off or withdrawing and closing myself off [probably both at the same time actually...], giving you a foretaste of the capabilities of an INFJ doorslam. Expect pretty much everything post-facto being filtered through a potential manipulation filter. It's not fun for me, trust me.

I'd say do whatever comes, ah, naturally in the circumstances. Pun intended :P 

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19 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

To me your post seems a little contradictory. You get up Adam for not giving passionately but Jane gets of scott free?? Is a job [which economically, they probably don't need to justify such a level of stress and withdrawal from the marriage; it is fully her "choice"] a good enough reason not to be measured against the same standard? I'm all for passionate giving, but unless you are getting your "love tank" filled somewhere (God, friends, family) at a point, passionate giving will become unsustainable and due to a lack of boundaries you will be enabling your own abuse.

You may argue that passionate giving for 2 months without any receiving [apart from extra $ which he probably doesn't value enough] isn't too long, but you haven't even suggested a healthy timeframe to unreciprocated passionate giving.... 

Totally agreed. Both are definitely at fault to some degree here. While Adam may not be handling the withdrawal in the most loving manner, Jane is also at fault for not acknowledging the strain her work is having on the marriage. To me, the issue isn't that she is being swamped with work for 2 months in itself. The problem is that they didn't discuss that this would be coming beforehand and how it would affect their marriage. Because had they discussed this beforehand, at least then both could come to an agreement and both would feel like they were heard. Since it sprung unexpectedly, Adam feels hurt and not be able to respond in a way that is more understanding and supportive in Jane's stressful period at work. On Jane's part, by being completely devoted to her job and resenting any protestation from Adam just shows where her heart truly lies: her work over her marriage. Marriage requires both people putting 100% into it. Barring any financial trouble, if you prioritize work over family and that doesn't trouble you, then you shouldn't get married.

 

19 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Unless we aren't holding Jane to the same standard, why would this make you less stressed? As Jane you have utterly failed to live up to this standard. Am I missing something? :huh:

Again I agree. If I was in Jane's shoes, I would feel like the worst husband ever. How is it a mutually loving and supportive marriage if I expect my wife to keep her mouth shut and unquestioningly support me 100% in my career all the while dismissing her needs? Love and support goes both ways. As a husband who has made the most serious vow to my wife, my priority is to my marriage first. Nothing else (aside from God) comes before it. I expect the woman I marry to approach marriage with the same mindset. 

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14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

To me your post seems a little contradictory.

Yes, you sure are correct, that is my bad. I think I had one too many thoughts going on in my head at once:blink:.

In the personal experience section, I was discussing the topic of not being in the mood, while in normal day to day, life challenges. And when I would disagree with Jane if she was working normal hours and then said she's not in the mood.

However, Jane is having roughly 18 hr days, and this falls under the second to last criteria I mentioned, time constraints.

 

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

You get up Adam for not giving passionately but Jane gets of scott free??

I might need to go back at some point and re-read the scenario but from what I remember, I still think this is all on Adam. He never should have asked Jane to marry him if he can’t handle a women who might have to temporarily, for short times, place her career over their marriage. By accepting this risk, he is respecting Jane’s career and the things that are important to her. It seems that now he is unhappy with the reality of the risks.

Jane is not in a position to give. So she is most definitely not held to the same standard and yes gets off scott free. By marrying her, Adam accepted there will be times in their marriage when he must step it up and do all the giving and there will be times when Jane must step it up and do all the giving.  If he can’t accept this type of give and take relationship, then he should have married a women who can or will always put her marriage first.

After Jane recovers from her ordeal, Adam can pack the car with camping gear…ONE sleeping bag and surprise Jane with an intimate, romantic camping trip…Then they can make sweet love in their sleeping bag (or in the tent), next to a fire…And since Jane is recovered, she gets to pleasure him for first, since he supported her.

Anyway, I very well might be missing something or looking at this all wrong but this is why I think this one is all on him.

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Not sure if you're getting the scenarios mixed up. The withholding for 2 months is in this scenario....

She was also talking about another similar thread...a different one I had not read.

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11 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

However, Jane is having roughly 18 hr days, and this falls under the second to last criteria I mentioned, time constraints.

Yes. But this was chosen by Jane without input or discussion with Adam. So it's okay not to give as long as I somehow make myself busy enough? 

11 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

Jane is not in a position to give.

She's not in forced labour, right?....Granted, she's made a commitment that one would want to keep but she has not even given Adam an indication that she will try her hardest to avoid such circumstances in the future. One of the big problems is the issue that Jane doesn't seem to have a problem with her behaviour over the last 2 months...

11 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

He never should have asked Jane to marry him if he can’t handle a women who might have to temporarily, for short times, place her career over their marriage.

There is no mention in the scenario that they both entered the marriage with an understanding that her/their careers will be prioritised. Even so, it is one thing to prioritise a job [in which case one would still expect Jane to be understanding of Adam's position and address this to a degree] and effectively discarding marital responsibilities for 2 months while reaping benefits; "prioritise career" doesn't meant "treat the marriage like dirt"...

11 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

If he can’t accept this type of give and take relationship, then he should have married a women who can or will always put her marriage first.

Unless it is mutually expressly and explicitly rejected, do you think that people should be generally able to assume that a marriage should be prioritised over careers? 

 

11 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

After Jane recovers from her ordeal, Adam can pack the car with camping gear…ONE sleeping bag and surprise Jane with an intimate, romantic camping trip…Then they can make sweet love in their sleeping bag (or in the tent), next to a fire…And since Jane is recovered, she gets to pleasure him for first, since he supported her.

Might be a little presumptuous. Also, if she was not expected to give in the 2 months, how come she has some kind of debt/imbalance to work off? "Adam supported while being neglected for 2 months; now it's Jane's turn to make up for it".

On a different note, one sleeping bag! Bad enough sleeping alone in a sleeping bag lol. That's quite the gamble.

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14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

this was chosen by Jane without input or discussion with Adam.

That’s because it’s Jane’s career, not Adam’s. Adam can’t go into her work and tell her boss now that Jane and I are married, Jane/I have equal say in, what assignments to takes, hours she has to work…et cetera. Jane most certainly can’t tell her boss (especially, in the advertising world) I have to talk to my husband first, before I take that assignment. If most women in many corporate settings did that, she would be viewed in a very negative way, would be mocked and ridiculed at work, and in many situations, that would definitely be career suicide.

Maybe Adam is extremely immature or possibly ignorant to think a career women can tell her boss to put the project on hold while she runs it by her husband first.

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

So it's okay not to give as long as I somehow make myself busy enough? 

If Adam thinks Jane is just making herself busy, that sounds like he has very little respect/appreciation for his wife and views her as a mindless automaton. If he respected Jane, he would not view her as just making herself busy. I don’t know as this is a hypothetical scenario but that might really upset Jane.

If Adam respected his wife, he would see her as a critical and needed member of her company because she is highly skilled, intelligent, and has amazing God given abilities.

 

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

she has not even given Adam an indication that she will try her hardest to avoid such circumstances in the future.

That’s probably because she can’t. She’s in advertising. This will most likely happen throughout her career.

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

One of the big problems is the issue that Jane doesn't seem to have a problem with her behaviour over the last 2 months...

Jane is having 18 hour days, experiencing high stress levels, and sleep deprivation…Adam should not be thinking about himself, what he is not getting, how he is unhappy with her behavior, and most definitely not have the same expectations from his wife, during this time.

I’d hate to think what he would expect from her if she ever got pregnant.

During this time, Adam should show his wife love, compassion, and empathy.  

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

There is no mention in the scenario that they both entered the marriage with an understanding that her/their careers will be prioritised.

There are many careers that will not allow you to prioritize your marriage first. The ad world is definitely one of those careers. So per this scenario, all we know is that Adam either accepted the risks or marrying a women who might not always prioritize the marriage first or it seems like he made this assumption and did not factor in…what if he’s wrong? Now if before they got married, Jane promised Adam she will always put their marriage first, then that changes things.

If Adam’s assumption was wrong, does not mean Jane should commit career suicide.

Adam is wrong for doing this during such a difficult period in her life. A mature, respectful, caring, empathetic, loving spouse will know there is a time and place to discuss their concerns…He should have addressed his concerns after her project was over, not during.

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

it is one thing to prioritise a job [in which case one would still expect Jane to be understanding of Adam's position and address this to a degree

Again, I don’t see how Jane could be expected to do anything other than sleep when she gets home. Adam should not be thinking about himself, what he is not getting, why he is unhappy, and should not be holding Jane to the same standard….his standards seem to be unrealistic and cause his wife more stress.

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

doesn't meant "treat the marriage like dirt"...

Adam seems to be treating the marriage like dirt. His poor wife is going through this and he still expects the same from her, is arguing and causing more stress, and thinking about himself.

When Jane gets home, her only objective should be sleep, nothing else. Adam should not expect anything more from her, during this marathon she is in.

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Unless it is mutually expressly and explicitly rejected, do you think that people should be generally able to assume that a marriage should be prioritised over careers? 

I have never put much thought into what people should generally assume regarding the prioritization of careers and marriages. Off the top of my head, it seems crazy to assume when marrying a person, that they will put their marriage over their career every single time.

I also think it is crazy to assume that everything is going to be close to = in a relationship at every single moment. Life is never that balanced and harmonious, at least for the average person.

If a person makes assumptions, then they are accepting the of the possibility of a bad outcome, not just the good ones.…so a when making an assumption about a person you’re planning the rest of your life with, you better be certain you can also accept an undesirable outcome.

I’m about as horny as they come and I would never assume the girl I am thinking about marring is going to be ok with that, have lots of sex, or the things I like….Or just because she says she is a Christian, does not mean I am going to assume she has the same theological views I do…because if I am wrong, I am not going to enjoy those consequesnces….at all.

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Might be a little presumptuous. Also, if she was not expected to give in the 2 months, how come she has some kind of debt/imbalance to work off? "Adam supported while being neglected for 2 months; now it's Jane's turn to make up for it".

On a different note, one sleeping bag! Bad enough sleeping alone in a sleeping bag lol. That's quite the gamble.

If Adam were to view Jane wanting to give him as her paying off some sort of debt, he would appear to be very immature, not very empathetic, caring, respectful, or understanding of what Jane went through. Or her feelings of gratitude for being a good husband and wanting to bond with him.

It seems like he should view it as…I supported and gave to her in a difficult time and she is excited to give to me in a loving, caring, spousal way.

 

14 hours ago, 'tis the Bearded One said:

On a different note, one sleeping bag! Bad enough sleeping alone in a sleeping bag lol. That's quite the gamble.

This true lol. However, I would imagine it would be better with a wife in there to keep you company…but just in case I’m wrong, I guess Adam should pack a cot and an extra sleeping bag…good thing this is a hypothetical and im not planning this lol.

 

 

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On 10/22/2016 at 8:44 AM, Naturally said:

Theoretical situation:

Jane and Adam are married. Jane works in advertising and landed a major project. Jane works on the project emphatically which sees her arriving home at midnight and leaving for work at 6am for two months straight. Adam works too although barely gets to see Jane in the evenings and on the weekends and when he does she’s always stressed and frustrated about her project. Adam and Jane haven’t had sex in the last two months and he feels disconnected from her both physically and emotionally while Jane has been too stressed with work to notice. Adam discussed this several times with Jane over the last two months although the discussions often ended in an argument about how Adam doesn’t support her in her job and how he doesn’t understand how important it is to her.

Jane is to present her project at a large event which includes dinner and mingling with all members of the company including the executives and clients. Three days before this ostentatious event Jane and Adam fell into another argument about the lack of intimacy in their relationship. Jane shouts that it’s only temporary and that if he really loved her he would be considerate in this stressful time in her life and understand why she’s been too exhausted to get in the mood. Adam shouts back that she’s never in the mood, and that he’s consistently helped out at home while she’s been working and that if she really loved him she would make an effort.

Adam slept on the couch that night and for the next three days both Jane and Adam have been stubbornly ignoring each other. The morning of her event Jane and Adam still weren’t speaking. Jane really wanted Adam to come to her event as they planned weeks ago but she wasn’t sure if he was still going to go, following their argument. Jane really wanted Adam to come so he could see the result of all her work over the last two months. Partners were also invited to the event and it was important to Jane to have Adam by her side.

Swallowing her pride, Jane mustered up the courage to ask Adam whether he would come tonight. She sheepishly walked into the bedroom where he was getting dressed for work. She stood quietly for a moment until Adam noticed her. Tying his tie in the mirror he saw Jane in the background and after 3 days of ignoring his presence he wondered what inspired this bold move.

Jane waited until Adam turned around when she asked dryly “are you still coming tonight?”

 

 

Your move, fellas. If you were Adam, what would be your response and what would you do?

Seeing that other women have responded, I decided to risk it and share my views...based solely on the original post, rather than reading every single response. :)

First, I'm a little curious...because of the word LANDED, I have to assume she was working to get an account this big. Versus the idea that it was assigned, which would indicate that she did not have a choice. Although, I have to admit, either way I don't think it would change my views.

OK, since some things were not spelled out for us, I'm going to presume that it's a given that a few things have transpired in their relationship because the scenario indicates that they are both intelligent thinkers. 1. That they knew before marriage what the other was studying to become, and that they were each intelligent enough to know what that might involve. 2. That this was accepted by BOTH parties, since they did, in fact, marry.

That being said...

They are BOTH wrong, and they should BOTH be adjusting their thought processes a little.

Jane: Even if she doesn't have time for anything but sleep and work. OK, fine. Tell me she doesn't have the energy to crawl into bed, wrap her arms around her husband, kiss his neck, and nudge him awake enough to whisper 'I love you, and I can't wait for this to be over' into his ear? When the do see each other in a few brief moments at the end of each day, does she not have the energy to give him a kiss on the cheek, or fix him a bowl of cereal when she's getting hers? I mean, come on...it's the little things, people. If both people are working, and have demanding jobs, the little things become that much more important. You can ALWAYS find time for a little affection. I'm sorry, there is no excuse to not keep the lines of communications and affection open in some way.

Now, to Adam: Thinking that 2 months is 'NEVER' is simply ridiculous. Really, 2 months does not forever make. Only talking to her when he wasn't getting enough physical attention was a bad move. He should have been trying to talk to her about her job, and how her days were, in their few moments together, every day. Showing interest shows support. Without his support, her presentation could go south rather quickly. We, as humans, rely quite heavily on the love and support of our partners (if we are lucky to have them). So, showing his support during this time is important to her. Just as her showing him support in his career would be.

The problem is this situation could go either way. Let's just put it on the other foot, right? If Adam was the one who was too busy with work for anything, and Jane was upset because he wasn't talking to her and giving her emotional attention (yes, again, both men and women need sex and emotion, not the point right now) how would he feel. In this case, it would be just as important for Jane to show her support, so that he does well.

All I'm saying is, you can keep both of the lines (communication and affection) open just by doing the little stuff. Showing interest in the little things in life, until things can be more.

Should the emotional distance still occur to the extent that she doesn't know if he will come, or not, I just have to say that he should. I mean, if he has given his word, it should be a given, no matter how the relationship is. However, I feel like if they had both worked at keeping the lines of communication and affection both open a little more, then, when the day of the presentation came, there would be no question in her mind that he would be proud to stand in support of her.

What would be good is, if the two people involved agreed that when something like this occurs in their relationship, that when things are normal they do something really special together. A simple getaway of some kind, or even shutting themselves in at home for a weekend for movies and making love and food (hey, maybe they could combine those last to ;) lol). Just a thought.

These scenarios are really great and thought provoking. It shows how important it is to have complete communication about EVERYTHING, even before marriage...well, even before engagement, really.

OK, I know this really wasn't directed at women, so I'll go back to my corner, now. These are just my thoughts, and they may not even be complete, but I've been watching the back and forth for a while, and I just felt that a little different view could be good.

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On 2/26/2017 at 6:02 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

You get up Adam for not giving passionately but Jane gets of scott free?? Is a job [which economically, they probably don't need to justify such a level of stress and withdrawal from the marriage; it is fully her "choice"] a good enough reason not to be measured against the same standard?

That's two threads now that you've suggested the wife's job is of less importance. How can you determine from the scenario that only the job of the wife would be less economically beneficial to the marriage? Are you applying your own personal assumptions to the scenario?

On 2/26/2017 at 6:02 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Unless we aren't holding Jane to the same standard, why would this make you less stressed? As Jane you have utterly failed to live up to this standard. Am I missing something? :huh:

Jane's situation undeniably put undue stress on the relationship and while Adam is completely within his right to call her out on it (after all, he has feelings too), in doing so places more stress on Jane who's trying to focus all of her cognitive energy on churning out this project by the deadline. Any further stress Adam places on her (warranted or not) will likely elevate her resistance and cause long term resentment. But if Adam puts his own needs aside and supports her during this stressful time it will decrease her stress levels and she will feel calmer. The only way it's not holding Jane up to the same standard is if she wouldn't be required to do the same for Adam if the scenario was reversed, and that's not the case.

On 2/26/2017 at 7:23 PM, Invincible said:

On Jane's part, by being completely devoted to her job and resenting any protestation from Adam just shows where her heart truly lies: her work over her marriage. Marriage requires both people putting 100% into it. Barring any financial trouble, if you prioritize work over family and that doesn't trouble you, then you shouldn't get married.

I agree with you that there's a breakdown of communication in this scenario but there are times during a marriage where you will need to briefly prioritize things over your marriage. Jane prioritizing work is specific to this project deadline. 

On 2/27/2017 at 8:32 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Yes. But this was chosen by Jane without input or discussion with Adam. So it's okay not to give as long as I somehow make myself busy enough? 

Is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she's distraught about her father in the hospital with cancer? is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she is a surgeon and working full days to save lives? is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she's worried about her teenage daughter who ran away from home? is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she has post-natal depression? is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she's been fired and experiencing low self-esteem? Is it okay for your wife not to be giving because it's the end of year holidays and both your family and her family are staying at your house and she's constantly running around planning and caring for everyone?

There will always always always be things that come up in a marriage that will occupy your attention for a brief period. It goes without saying that communication is vital during these periods. But when communication breaks down in times of stress, worry or distress you need support and empathy from your partner because they too will go through hardships and they too will want your support and empathy not a tirade on how they haven't been attending to your needs.

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4 hours ago, StarGate SG1 said:

That’s because it’s Jane’s career, not Adam’s. Adam can’t go into her work and tell her boss now that Jane and I are married, Jane/I have equal say in, what assignments to takes, hours she has to work…et cetera. Jane most certainly can’t tell her boss (especially, in the advertising world) I have to talk to my husband first, before I take that assignment. If most women in many corporate settings did that, she would be viewed in a very negative way, would be mocked and ridiculed at work, and in many situations, that would definitely be career suicide.

Exactly. It's logical to assume Adam knew Jane is employed/would seek employment.

2 hours ago, PhotoGirl said:

They are BOTH wrong, and they should BOTH be adjusting their thought processes a little.

I agree. We're teasing things apart in this thread but this essentially sums it up.

3 hours ago, PhotoGirl said:

These scenarios are really great and thought provoking. It shows how important it is to have complete communication about EVERYTHING, even before marriage...well, even before engagement, really.

I think so too. Honestly, I'm quite surprised by people's reactions to the behaviours in the scenarios; as if they are reprehensible aberrations, meanwhile every relationship I've ever seen has at one time or another manifested these behaviours.

3 hours ago, PhotoGirl said:

OK, I know this really wasn't directed at women, so I'll go back to my corner, now. These are just my thoughts, and they may not even be complete, but I've been watching the back and forth for a while, and I just felt that a little different view could be good.

Your thoughts are always welcome, my sweet. My fault for posting in the guy section but in future I will post the scenarios under relationship discussion so girls don't feel excluded. 

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On 2/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

That’s because it’s Jane’s career, not Adam’s. Adam can’t go into her work and tell her boss now that Jane and I are married, Jane/I have equal say in, what assignments to takes, hours she has to work…et cetera. Jane most certainly can’t tell her boss (especially, in the advertising world) I have to talk to my husband first, before I take that assignment. If most women in many corporate settings did that, she would be viewed in a very negative way, would be mocked and ridiculed at work, and in many situations, that would definitely be career suicide.

Maybe Adam is extremely immature or possibly ignorant to think a career women can tell her boss to put the project on hold while she runs it by her husband first.

That's a little hyperbolic. Is it too much to ask for her to tell her boss: 'I am so grateful for you offering me this opportunity. Could I please sleep on it. This is a major project and I want to make sure I am up to it!' The term "landed" to me also indicates that she may have been actively trying to get that project in which case she could have discussed it with Adam well before starting it. On a sidenote, I'm sure bosses are aware of the influence spouses hold over success in the workplace even though it might not seem PC to say directly "let me check with my husband/spouse first". Even so, as a smart boss who would you rather have: someone who checks with their spouse and hence you know will have the support/commitment to flourish in the fulfillment of the job ["This job/project is important enough to me for me to address all potential impediments to its success; I want to make sure I'm the right person to take this responsibility"] or someone who thinks they can do it on their own and potentially has an unhappy spouse interfering with their work performance? 

She will most likely be judged by her performance than by any request to wait/check things out before commitment - unless she does this in an unfortunate way that might communicate that she isn't normally committed to her job. People value someone being able to meet their commitments. If it's the kind of workplace that doesn't respect its employee's out-of-work life, its probably best to find a different workplace. Unless that fits with your career first perspective.

Are we now all assuming she is a career woman?

On 2/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

If Adam respected his wife, he would see her as a critical and needed member of her company because she is highly skilled, intelligent, and has amazing God given abilities.

Sure, but this raises the question: who is valued more highly in my wife's life: me (her husband) or her workplace?

On 2/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

That’s probably because she can’t. She’s in advertising. This will most likely happen throughout her career.

All the more reason for her to start addressing how her work is interfering in her marriage and how best to handle that if this is to be a common thing. 

On 2/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

I’d hate to think what he would expect from her if she ever got pregnant.

If my wife purposefully got herself pregnant when we agreed we wouldn't have any further kids and as a result I need to work a lot more to meet our financial needs, and postpone whatever plans having another child destroys, then yes, I would be annoyed. I think anyone would be. Is the wife entitled to say "I want a baby so I will have a baby. I don't care about how you feel about it. I don't care about the added responsibilities and obligations that will bring for your. You will just have to deal"?

 

On 2/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

Adam is wrong for doing this during such a difficult period in her life. A mature, respectful, caring, empathetic, loving spouse will know there is a time and place to discuss their concerns…He should have addressed his concerns after her project was over, not during.

 

On 2/28/2017 at 3:17 PM, Naturally said:

Jane's situation undeniably put undue stress on the relationship and while Adam is completely within his right to call her out on it (after all, he has feelings too), in doing so places more stress on Jane whose trying to focus all of her cognitive energy on churning out this project by the deadline. Any further stress Adam places on her (warranted or not) will likely elevate her resistance and cause long term resentment. But if Adam puts his own needs aside and supports her during this stressful time it will decrease her stress levels and she will feel calmer.

Certainly there is a place for the argument that once Adam realised Jane will not respond to his expressed need, to drop the issue and not expect anything until the pressure time is over. It seems that he has at least continued to do the house chores etc till the end. HOWEVER does this mean that Adam should not have expressed his need whatsoever in the first place? Should he have expected that Jane won't do even the little things so no need to bring that up and the potential conflict and pressure that raises? As @PhotoGirl and others have pointed out. It doesn't take much time to give little affections that can mean a lot. Maybe Adam would have been happy with that until the pressure time is over but he reacted poorly when even those little things seemed too much to ask for. If you were in Jane's position, too stressed out to consider how your husband may be feeling or maybe you are assuming that he is fine with the situation but your spouse is feeling unloved/disrespected/neglected wouldn't you want to them to raise the issue? How would you feel after 2 months when he says, "I felt terribly neglected and unloved the whole time" wouldn't it be "Why didn't you tell me?? I would have made the effort to give those little attentions/affirmations even if I couldn't have had sex". Wouldn't you feel bad about yourself that your partner couldn't come to you about that issue in a timely manner?

 

On 2/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

If Adam were to view Jane wanting to give him as her paying off some sort of debt, he would appear to be very immature, not very empathetic, caring, respectful, or understanding of what Jane went through. Or her feelings of gratitude for being a good husband and wanting to bond with him.

Certainly to the immature part. We don't want a transactional marriage. My point was that if Jane is absolutely outside the standard of passionate giving during the two months then there would be no need/expectation of her "compensating"/restoring for the 2 month's neglect. The expectations from her would be exactly the same as just before she took the project. 

On 2/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, StarGate SG1 said:

It seems like he should view it as…I supported and gave to her in a difficult time and she is excited to give to me in a loving, caring, spousal way.

Nothing wrong with that. But that can only be his interpretation of her actions if/when they occur. Nothing in the scenario indicates that she has responded in such a way. Nothing indicates that she sees a need to temporarily re/over-invest in the relationship to restore the rift caused by the 2 months. If after neglect, spouses don't see the need to re/over-invest in order to completely heal the rift that that neglect has caused in their relationship, that marriage will automatically deteriorate over time. How would you feel if your spouse came out of such a 2 months and treated your relationship as if those 2 months never took place?

 

On 2/28/2017 at 3:17 PM, Naturally said:

That's two threads now that you've suggested the wife's job is of less importance. How can you determine from the scenario that only the job of the wife would be less economically beneficial to the marriage? Are you applying your own personal assumptions to the scenario?

In the other thread, the respective importance of the spouse's jobs wasn't the prime issue. The issue wasn't "what decision was made" it was "how was the decision made". As I, and you, pointed out there are various factors that may influence on the importance of the spouse's jobs - separate from issues that influence the decision too such as family/friendship proximity. 

In regard to this scenario I stated: Is a job [which economically, they probably don't need to justify such a level of stress and withdrawal from the marriage; it is fully her "choice"] a good enough reason not to be measured against the same standard?

It is not that her job may be less important than his job. It's that her job [or better saying her project] is interfering significantly with the marriage and not his job! You can have 10 scenarios where the wife's job is in fact less important/the problem and that still wouldn't mean that it is for all wive's jobs...In regard to the justifying bit above I was referring to her project not her overall job because there was no indication that her job was an issue before this project or would be afterward - granted, I should have expressed this more clearly. There is no mention that they were in any financial need let alone such need that might require taking up such an intense project temporarily or as a common occurance. Of course, this is assuming that Jane could have passed on the project without getting fired. Again, there was no indication that this was non-voluntary. If she couldn't pass on the project because it would mean losing her job and especially if they needed her job to meet mutual financial obligations then this of course changes things. With significant information holes it becomes necessary to make assumptions - and I did state those assumptions. If you want to argue that those assumptions may be invalid and therefore the conclusions on which they were based should change, go right ahead! But there is nothing wrong with making assumptions, and stating them, when we tease apart these scenarios.

On 2/28/2017 at 3:17 PM, Naturally said:

there are times during a marriage where you will need to briefly prioritize things over your marriage. Jane prioritizing work is specific to this project deadline. 

And when they occur, it should be addressed and not treated like its a non-issue. 

On 2/28/2017 at 3:17 PM, Naturally said:

Is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she's distraught about her father in the hospital with cancer?

Her father having cancer - clearly not her choice.

On 2/28/2017 at 3:17 PM, Naturally said:

is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she is a surgeon and working full days to save lives?

If that turns our marriage into a sham and I didn't sign on to that or am not okay with that: yes. If she wants someone to prepare the food, clean the house etc while she's off saving lives then she can stay single and get a maid. If she want companionship, she can get a flatmate or a dog. If she wants a marriage then she can get a marriage partner with the responsibilities and benefits that entails. I don't mean to come across as heartless, but there will always be people hurting and dying wherever you are and however much time you spend on the issue. In regard to surgery, certainly there are many instances that involve damage by third parties. However, most of it will be as a result of the person's own lifestyle choices or just a natural process of growing old. Why should I force myself to be content with a neglectful marriage because some person doesn't like the consequences of their choices or natural processes? Do you want to give up your marital happiness [and watch your spouse effectively killing themselves] so your spouse can chronically try and protect another from the consequences of their own choices?

Is a pastor free to neglect his own family because he spends all his time "helping save lives for eternity"? Unfortunately, pastor's kids frequently have a bad reputation for a reason...

Certainly, you can have a happy couple that spends a minimal time relating because they are so caught up and mutually committed in the meritorious work that they are doing. That's okay! But if one spouse isn't okay with it and is being unreasonably neglected, that is not okay. If we can't have a reasonable proper God-intended marriage as long as someone is suffering somewhere, something is wrong.

Ooops, have to go...

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On 2/28/2017 at 3:17 PM, Naturally said:

is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she's worried about her teenage daughter who ran away from home? is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she has post-natal depression? is it okay for your wife not to be giving because she's been fired and experiencing low self-esteem?

None of these negative circumstances are the direct result of a choice. She wouldn't want to choose any of them. As we covered elsewhere, how long she takes to recover and her willingness to recover would be the issue. 

On 2/28/2017 at 3:17 PM, Naturally said:

 Is it okay for your wife not to be giving because it's the end of year holidays and both your family and her family are staying at your house and she's constantly running around planning and caring for everyone?

This comes the closest to a choice since she probably chose, or could at least refuse, the family visit. Are the family staying for 2 months? Is she enabling others being lazy by possibly overburdening herself? If this is supposed to be a holiday, shouldn't her spouse ensure she is also getting enough time out? Family staying over would have been most probably discussed prior to it taking place. If acts of service is her love language towards family, can one reasonably compare this to making $? The family connections that are enabled by her "busyness" could also very reasonably be considered beneficial and valued by both parties and I think can't really be compared to some more income which presumably they don't need in exchange for disconnection and damage to the wife's health. 

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On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

That's a little hyperbolic. Is it too much to ask for her to tell her boss: 'I am so grateful for you offering me this opportunity. Could I please sleep on it. This is a major project and I want to make sure I am up to it!' The term "landed" to me also indicates that she may have been actively trying to get that project in which case she could have discussed it with Adam well before starting it. On a sidenote, I'm sure bosses are aware of the influence spouses hold over success in the workplace even though it might not seem PC to say directly "let me check with my husband/spouse first". Even so, as a smart boss who would you rather have: someone who checks with their spouse and hence you know will have the support/commitment to flourish in the fulfillment of the job ["This job/project is important enough to me for me to address all potential impediments to its success; I want to make sure I'm the right person to take this responsibility"] or someone who thinks they can do it on their own and potentially has an unhappy spouse interfering with their work performance? 

Your questions are wildly unrealistic. There is no way the average man/women per this scenario can ever tell an employer anything similar to what you have suggested. As I stated in the last response, that would be career suicide. That is not how the real world works.

On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Sure, but this raises the question: who is valued more highly in my wife's life: me (her husband) or her workplace?

 This question has no relevance to appreciating/respecting Jane for her talents, which I had to mention bc the previous comment completely devalued her by saying she is essentially just making herself busy.

Just because she is talented, does mean she values her work over her husband.

Again, this is getting very irrelevant b\c Adam never asked this question and it lacks confidence/maturity

A mature, confident husband understands/or:

  •       Supports his wife during hard times, even if he can’t get anything in return
  •      The meaning of sacrifice and life is not always fair, balanced, and equal
  •      Does not compare himself to things in his wife’s life
  •      During times of absence, he still knows he’s #1 in his wife’s heart·        
On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

All the more reason for her to start addressing how her work is interfering in her marriage and how best to handle that if this is to be a common thing. 

All the more reason for her to show Adam that her work is not the problem but rather Adam’s lack of confidence and maturity, when encountering real world challenges.

On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Certainly to the immature part. We don't want a transactional marriage. My point was that if Jane is absolutely outside the standard of passionate giving during the two months then there would be no need/expectation of her "compensating"/restoring for the 2 month's neglect. The expectations from her would be exactly the same as just before she took the project.

I guess for a second there I was trying to look at the relationship from a semi-mature perspective..i.e

If Adam acted like a confident mature husband, when handling this problem…Jane would appreciate the sacrifice he made for her and express her gratitude in a loving way. Nobody would have the thoughts of compensating, debt, restitution or any other immature spin.  

On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Nothing in the scenario indicates that she has responded in such a way.

That’s because the actual scenario ended while they were still fighting.

On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

Nothing indicates that she sees a need to temporarily re/over-invest in the relationship to restore the rift caused by the 2 months.

Again, what you’re saying is not relevant to me. Again, the way I see it anything regarding her behavior is not valid:

1)      18 hour days, 4/5 hours of sleep, and high stress levels, under these conditions, you can’t have the same expectations for your spouse. They can barely think at this point.

2) Adam caused the 2 month rift b/c he lacked the necessary confidence and maturity to handle real world challenges per the scenario.

On 2/28/2017 at 5:58 PM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

How would you feel if your spouse came out of such a 2 months and treated your relationship as if those 2 months never took place?

      1)  Read my first post in this thread and you will see how I thought, reacted, and treated my GF during a similar time. That is because I am a confident man that showed her love, compassion, empathy, maturity, respect, and passion. I was glad to support her, make sacrifices, and help her get through the hardship.

 2) Adam caused the 2 month rift/conflict. He should consider himself damn lucky she pretended like nothing happened lol:D.     

Lastly, it seems like there is a new version of Adam you’re creating with your questions, which is different than @Naturally version of Adam. Some questions/comments you’re posing to me seem to stray off course and aren’t relevant because:

A)    I never had the thoughts you mentioned, when my ex was in a hardship. Nor would I ever imagine doing that to her/a wife. My only focus was supporting her and helping her get through it.

B  )    Through the things you have mentioned, your version of Adam does not appear to respect Jane’s talents, devalues her contributions, and seems like he should have married a women whose life must completely revolve around him.

C)    Some of your comments/questions keep circling back to Jane’s behavior. Per this scenario, this is completely irrelevant to me, as I have stated many times, Jane is sleep deprived, having 18 hr days, and experiencing high stress levels. OF COURSE SHE’S NOT GOING TO BEHAVE NORMALLY Under these conditions I don’t believe in holding a person to the same standards. If you have concerns, talk about it after things settle, not during.

 

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On 01/03/2017 at 10:58 AM, 'tis the Bearded One said:

HOWEVER does this mean that Adam should not have expressed his need whatsoever in the first place? Should he have expected that Jane won't do even the little things so no need to bring that up and the potential conflict and pressure that raises? As @PhotoGirl and others have pointed out. It doesn't take much time to give little affections that can mean a lot. Maybe Adam would have been happy with that until the pressure time is over but he reacted poorly when even those little things seemed too much to ask for.

If you were in Jane's position, too stressed out to consider how your husband may be feeling or maybe you are assuming that he is fine with the situation but your spouse is feeling unloved/disrespected/neglected wouldn't you want to them to raise the issue? How would you feel after 2 months when he says, "I felt terribly neglected and unloved the whole time" wouldn't it be "Why didn't you tell me?? I would have made the effort to give those little attentions/affirmations even if I couldn't have had sex". Wouldn't you feel bad about yourself that your partner couldn't come to you about that issue in a timely manner?

Adam is right to bring up his feelings of neglect with his wife but would be wrong to continually berate her when he sees that she's currently too stressed to respond in a way that will validate his feelings.

Jane is wrong to have neglected Adam for two months. As everyone has mentioned, there are things she could have done that are not time-consuming that show you care.

Adam has a right to expect his wife to be concerned about his feelings and his needs. Jane has a right to expect her husband to support her in a time of need (voluntary or involuntary)

If I were in Jane's position, I would want my husband to tell me of his feelings of neglect, once. After that one time, despite being unbearably busy, I'm not going to forget so there's no need to tell me a second time. Sure, if you ask me to pick up a bottle of milk during this stressful time, It's likely I'll forget. But if you tell your wife you're feeling neglected, she won't forget. A woman won't forget a feeling. If she tells you she did, she's lying. A woman will work faster to try and get home a half hour earlier for you, a woman will be watching your body language to see how disappointed you are in her that day, a woman will be grading the coldness of your kiss goodbye as she drives to work in the morning, a woman will be thinking "I know, I know" in her head as she's frantically working at home on her project and you innocuously walk past, a woman will register every single passive aggressive word you say over dinner and use it to assess how angry you are. Women are very intuitive and they are self-preservationists. A wife might not know what she's doing wrong but she absolutely knows that her husband is not happy. If a wife made no effort to make things better after her husband told her of his feelings, then she knows he is still upset with her. Even when she disingenuously asks "what's wrong?" she absolutely knows what's wrong. So, there is no reason for Adam to be berating Jane with his feelings. JANE KNOWS.

Adam should absolutely tell Jane of his feelings - once. Adam telling Jane of his feelings makes Jane accountable when her stressful period is over. She is not able to say "why didn't you tell me?" She has to answer the much more loaded question "why didn't you care?"

 

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