Free the nipple?

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ 593]

 

 

your thoughts?? 

[Queen 2,242]

The main question is, "Why should women's nipples be forced into hiding?" 

Socialization- we are socialized to cover up.  And women tend to listen to society's messages.  Also, if we were to try to undo this socialization that men are also socialized to, we would be lusted after and that is just not always on our agenda for the day.  We don't like to be targets of jaw-dropping.  Also, every woman's nipples are different.  What if someone decides to judge the way we look?  Some women just can't handle the thought of that.  Nipples also change due to temperature and other stimulants or not!  And sometimes one does and the other doesn't!  Some sight-seers have expectations that they must be perky at all times when nipples also can be soft and comfortable as well.  It really boils down to self-consciousness.  But then there's the other dilemma, a moral dilemma of immodesty.  Is it only in perception?  Does it actually exist?  Or have we socialized the morality of covering up?  Don't know.  One reason why I cover up though, is to resist judgement.  I'm not a barbie doll and not photoshopped.  I don't look like porn stars do.  I am a real woman.  And that's not something we're socialized to be proud of. 

Now, for my review of the youtube video, I like the concept of "free the nipple" and separating it from the stronghold connection of sex.  We all have 'em.  And they should be considered beautiful in their variety.  Normal.  I have a child.  I remember the idea of breastfeeding in public was just completely taboo for me, and I didn't dare.  I always went to the car and did so discretely.  But now that I think about it.. why should breast feeding be so embarrassing?  We're mammals and mammals breast feed.  I think the video makes a valid point, but I'm not whipping mine out anytime soon.

[PaulJustPaul 800]

Women should have the same rights of men, undoubtedly. But we also need to consider the differences between men and women. I think if some girl touched a guy's bare breast, both she and he would think it much different than if a guy touched a girl's bare breast.

 

But maybe neither males nor females need to be topless in public or in media.

[Steadfast Madcap 3,213]

We don't like to be targets of jaw-dropping.  Also, every woman's nipples are different.  What if someone decides to judge the way we look?  Some women just can't handle the thought of that.  Nipples also change due to temperature and other stimulants or not!  And sometimes one does and the other doesn't!  Some sight-seers have expectations that they must be perky at all times when nipples also can be soft and comfortable as well.  It really boils down to self-consciousness.  

I have a child.  I remember the idea of breastfeeding in public was just completely taboo for me, and I didn't dare.  I always went to the car and did so discretely.  But now that I think about it.. why should breast feeding be so embarrassing?  We're mammals and mammals breast feed.  I think the video makes a valid point, but I'm not whipping mine out anytime soon.

 

I think you make very good points. I think destigmatizing toplessness among women would actually do great things for women's self-consciousness surrounding their natural shape. I went to about age 19 until I saw what natural nudity looked like (not photoshopped, or the 1% of all female beauty among celebrities), and it made me feel like I wasn't such a freak afterall!

 

But I actually think the destigmatization is most important for breastfeeding women, like you say. I always feel bad for women and babies who are out in the summer heat and covering themselves up with these huge apron-type things.

 

I think if some girl touched a guy's bare breast, both she and he would think it much different than if a guy touched a girl's bare breast.

 

But maybe neither males nor females need to be topless in public or in media.

 

I think groping is unacceptable for men or women. And I disagree. I may not *love* seeing 60 year old dudes jog around topless in the summer, but I can understand why they make that choice (it can hit one hundred degrees fairly regularly in Texas). The same courteous understanding should apply when we see attractive topless (wo)men in public.

 

Though really, this whole issue is not a hill I'd chose to die on. Maybe if I exercised more or had a baby I wanted to breastfeed I would be more invested.

[Jegsy Scarr 3,519]

I shall begin by quoting C.S. Lewis, because he's awesome. He makes some great points in his book Mere Christianity about modesty (It's a long quote, so I'll break it up and highlight the key points):

 

The Christian rule of chastity must not be confused with the social rule of 'modesty' (in one sense of that word); i.e. propriety, or decency. The social rule of propriety lays down how much of the human body should be displayed and what subjects can be referred to, and in what words, according to the customs of a given social circle.

 

Thus, while the rule of chastity is the same for all Christians at all times, the rule of propriety changes. A girl in the Pacific islands wearing hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes might both be equally 'modest', proper, or decent, according to the standards of their own societies: and both, for all we could tell by their dress, might be equally chaste (or equally unchaste). Some of the language which chaste women used in Shakespeare's time would have been used in the nineteenth century only by a woman completely abandoned.

 

When people break the rule of propriety current in their own time and place, if they do so in order to excite lust in themselves or others, then they are offending against chastity. But if they break it through ignorance or carelessness they are guilty only of bad manners. When, as often happens, they break it defiantly in order to shock or embarrass others, they are not necessarily being unchaste, but they are being uncharitable: for it is uncharitable to take pleasure in making other people uncomfortable.

 

 

Here's what I think. We need to have some laws about what's acceptable dress in public, because it's just a fact that some parts of the body are sexualised. For example, almost everyone will agree that walking around completely naked isn't acceptable in public, and that you at least have to wear underwear, because no one really argues that the sexual organs should be on show. We make some exceptions based on common sense (e.g. babies being changed, young children at the beach), but that's the general rule.

 

Now, as C.S. Lewis points out, what parts of the body are deemed acceptable for public display depends on time and culture. In most of the Western world now, breasts are seen as sexual. In other places, it's legs and ankles. Breasts haven't always been considered overly sexual even in the West. For example, back in Shakespeare's time, a woman could wear a very low-cut dress and it was still considered modest. Apparently, some of these dresses were so low that they actually sold a special rouge make-up specifically to colour the areolae.

 

However, just because modesty is (at least partly) culturally relative, that doesn't mean that we can therefore pretend that modesty doesn't matter. Even though what what body parts are considered sexual is relative to culture, those parts are still considered sexual. Therefore, there has to be a balance between personal freedom and consideration for others. If a cultural code of modesty is particularly strict (e.g. women covering their entire bodies including their faces) and just isn't practical, then it should be challenged. The balance in the West seems to be fairly good. The law would require a bare minimum (no pun intended) of underwear to be worn, and for women to cover their breasts (or at least most of them, including the nipples). Some may set higher standards (e.g. religious groups), but this goes beyond legal requirement and would be a matter of personal choice.

 

As I mentioned, even the minimum standards should be relaxed as necessary for practical reasons. Breastfeeding is the obvious example - women have to uncover their breasts in order to breastfeed, and breastfeeding can't be avoided in public if the baby or child needs it. It would seem obvious that it's perfectly acceptable to breastfeed in public, and that although women can certainly try to be modest about it, common sense applies. For example, if a baby is having trouble latching onto the breast, then the mother might have to uncover her whole breast so that she can get a good view to sort things out. If for a little while, her nipple is exposed, it's no big deal - people should understand that breastfeeding is an exception to what would usually be considered unacceptable.

 

But, I think we do have a problem in society. The problem is that breasts aren't just seen as sexual - they're hyper-sexualised, in the media, in advertising, and even in our language. It's so extreme that women who breastfeed in public face stigma, because people can't separate the sexual from the function aspect of breasts. For example, mothers who continue to breastfeed a child into their toddler years will often be criticised, even when this is done in private, and even though the World Health Organisation recommends that mothers continue to supplement their child's diet with breast-milk until the age of two.

 

Now, clearly something has to change, and we know from history that attitudes do change. But, they're not going to change overnight. And I'm not convinced that simply having public toplessness (or indeed, a change in the law to allow it) is what's going to help. I think breasts would still be sexualised - we'd just see more of them. Rather, I think the change has to be, as I mentioned before, in the media and in advertising. We need to stop the hyper-sexualisation of breasts, or I don't think we'll see acceptance of breastfeeding. Even if women are breastfeeding in public more often, I think it's going to be like trying to put out a forest fire with teacups of water - you're hardly going to make a dent in it if breasts are still being sexualised in the mass media.

 

xxx

[Guest markb4]

Totally against it.

 

I'd even be willing to support a ban on male toplessness if that will make these women happy.

[Guest Octavio]

Again, Jegsy nailed it in an elegant way, so here goes mine.

Why, especially in the US everybody question everything? Why this? Why that? Geeeez that's life! Why do you go to a job interview well dressed? Why don't you go in sweatpants? Because society told you to? Why don't you go in your pajamas to a wedding? Because society said you have to dress up? We tend to listen to society messages right Queen? Ha! Screw that, I'm going in a bathing suit to my next plane ride! F**** society! Hahaha!

One of the reasons I think the US (and the world) is going into a downward spiral morally is because they question everything, they don't like discipline. That's why there's so much drug addicts, homosexuality, promiscuity, obesity, etc. No one wants to follow the laws of life.

In western culture women's breast are sexualized, deal with it. This lady who made the video obviously is trying to make something of her life and there's nothing better than to be controversial. Well done!

Unfortunately, the way corrupt politicians, banks and corporations have handled the world, women now more than ever need to work and should get paid the same as men, but I don't think women and men are equal. We have different roles in life. It's funny when you tell a woman that this is a men's world immediately they jump into an endless debate, but when the time comes to choose a man or the father of their children, they choose a bad boy. A man whom she feels protected physically as well as financially. They like when they are smater than them, who are more knowledgeable, more handyman. A man who can do almost everything and makes them feel like a lady.

Regarding this video btw, nonsense! I definitely don't agree. Heck, I even dislike the trend of women wearing a men's tuxedo jacket with nothing underneath but the mountains! So classless!

[Jasmine23 1,605]

A woman needs to keep her nipples covered. Cleavage too. A woman needs to be modest men too the only time a woman or man should be showing their nipples or be topless is when they are in the privacy of their own home. Maybe I'm still too old fashioned but I don't care. This is my opinion and it's based on my views, upbringing, and religious beliefs.

[Dave1985 506]

What can I say. Once again I agree with Jegsy. You once again show great knowledge of Catholic teaching.

[Matthew 2,547]

I won't stand for this kind of immorality. One day women are allowed to show their nipples in public, the next day people will be having sex with animals and sacrificing children in the street. It's inevitable, really, with this terrible downward spiral we're in. And people questioning society? Unbelievable. 

 

 

Anyway, I think women should be allowed to be topless anywhere men are allowed to be topless. What is so different about a topless woman who has nice breasts than a topless man who has chiseled pecs and abs?

 

In theory, I'm even fine with complete nudity being allowed in public. In an ideal world, society wouldn't be so uptight about nudity or judgmental about each others' bodies. I don't think that's going to happen in most places any time soon, so in the meantime I'm fine with society having restrictions, as long as those restrictions are applied to men and women equally. Laws should not be based on the specific modesty ideals of various groups.

 

Personally, I like people, men and women, keeping their clothes on in the general public environment (work, shopping venues, etc.) But I'm well aware that's my personal sensibility and should have no bearing on what is legal or acceptable.

[Amber Elizabeth 861]

Both men and women need to keep their clothes on while in public, cause nobody wants to see that (at least people who value their eyesight like I do.  ).

[Welcome 58]

Might as well free it.

But women will have to shoulder the burden of that freedom.

Say perhaps a freak accident occurs and a woman loses her shirt and bra or someone does the bikini snip prank, all the while a camera is recording and then that video goes viral (maybe it goes on the news).

Then she'll have no recourse to get censorship and she'll have to bare her bare breasts for the world to see!

But I'm fine with that. It's only equal.

[Jegsy Scarr 3,519]

I forgot to say this, so I'll just add...

 

I don't think you can argue for female toplessness based on the idea of "equality" i.e. "Well, men can co topless, therefore women must be able to as well." I'm not saying that you can't hold the idea that female toplessness is okay, but I just don't think that particular argument is going to work. The reason there are different legal standards for men and women is because men and women are physically different. Men's chests just aren't considered sexual in the same way that women's are (they're still somewhat sexualised, but I think that just women's cleavage alone would be at the same level as a completely naked male chest). So I don't think the argument for equality works - it's not unjust to treat two different things in different ways.

 

Granted, as I mentioned before, I think the legal standards are a lot lower than what I'd considered modest. I don't much like men going topless in public either. Again, some situations will have more relaxed rules e.g. swimming, where modesty is relaxed for men and women (but I'd still draw the line at speedos and bikinis). But again, this is just what I'd consider to be modest and immodest, not necessarily what the law should be.

 

xxx

[wanderlust 315]

There are distinct, biological differences between a man and a woman - and this, throughout history, has allowed us to be socialized differently in the Western context. 

 

Honestly, I think we're at the point where some young people are so vehemently anti-society and the patriarchy its begot and blah blah that they'll support anything not mainstream. 

[TinyDancer 483]

Censored cover raises question: Why are breasts "obscene" but not [men's] chests?

 

Barnes & Noble censors cover featuring androgynous male model

 

I think women should be allowed to be topless anywhere men are allowed to be topless, i.e. the beach, swimming pools, public parks, etc.

 

I also think that women should be allowed to breastfeed their children, without a cover, in any place that women are legally allowed to be with their child. 

[Buster Cannon 1,430]

I think the concept is ridiculous IMO. Here's the thing; men and women's bodies aren't the same. Yes, there's some extra sexualisation done by the media, but in general breasts are something that men are sexually attracted to on women. This isn't fundamentally a bad thing, and neither is the concept of modesty. Running around NYC topless just to make a point comes off as narcissistic if anything else. "We're tired of our breasts being sexualised, so we're going to display them to everyone!" C'mon, man...

 

I do think an exception should be made for nursing mothers, who are actually trying to feed a baby as opposed to parading around topless.

[Matthew 2,547]

I feel like there's a fundamental difference in the way people on either side of this issue see things. My opinion is that we should start with equality, then consider if there should be any differences in the laws for men and women. Starting from equality, I don't see a logical reason why there should be different nudity laws for men and women.

[Guest Octavio]

Why this movement? Just to get even with men? Are you really dying to have your breast in the open air? Are you really angry that this world has evolved around men's decisions, inventions and discoveries? The funny thing is that there is a double standard in all of this. Many of the sports that were created by men for men are now played by women (including boxing and US football), trousers were initially for men, now women wear them too, if a ship is sinking women are saved first, BUT if a guy does a women's sport (like ballet or pilates) many women get turned off, if a men wears a dress, he is a cross-dresser, regarding the sinking ship, would you give your spot to a man? I thought so, Double standard!

This is a men's world, deal with it. Women and men's bodies are different and men get turned on by women's breast (oh! BTW, women themselves sexualized their own breast by wearing sexy bras that highlight their breast and using very revealing cleavage), so I think women's breast should be left to the imagination!

[Matthew 2,547]

Why this movement? Just to get even with men? Are you really dying to have your breast in the open air? Are you really angry that this world has evolved around men's decisions, inventions and discoveries? The funny thing is that there is a double standard in all of this. Many of the sports that were created by men for men are now played by women (including boxing and US football), trousers were initially for men, now women wear them too, if a ship is sinking women are saved first, BUT if a guy does a women's sport (like ballet or pilates) many women get turned off, if a men wears a dress, he is a cross-dresser, regarding the sinking ship, would you give your spot to a man? I thought so, Double standard!

This is a men's world, deal with it. Women and men's bodies are different and men get turned on by women's breast (oh! BTW, women themselves sexualized their own breast by wearing sexy bras that highlight their breast and using very revealing cleavage), so I think women's breast should be left to the imagination!

 

What the hell are you on about, dude? (And to whom are you speaking?)

 

BTW, please share with us your major inventions, decisions, and discoveries that have helped shape our world.

[29K 1,538]

Why this movement? Just to get even with men? Are you really dying to have your breast in the open air? Are you really angry that this world has evolved around men's decisions, inventions and discoveries? The funny thing is that there is a double standard in all of this. Many of the sports that were created by men for men are now played by women (including boxing and US football), trousers were initially for men, now women wear them too, if a ship is sinking women are saved first, BUT if a guy does a women's sport (like ballet or pilates) many women get turned off, if a men wears a dress, he is a cross-dresser, regarding the sinking ship, would you give your spot to a man? I thought so, Double standard!

This is a men's world, deal with it. Women and men's bodies are different and men get turned on by women's breast (oh! BTW, women themselves sexualized their own breast by wearing sexy bras that highlight their breast and using very revealing cleavage), so I think women's breast should be left to the imagination!

 

If you weren't actually being serious this would be an excellent piece of satire.  

[Steadfast Madcap 3,213]

Are you really angry that this world has evolved around men's decisions

 

Um, yeah?

[Guest Octavio]

What the hell are you on about, dude? (And to whom are you speaking?)

BTW, please share with us your major inventions, decisions, and discoveries that have helped shape our world.

I'm speaking to all women who try to get even with men for some reason. If you read the statement carefully, I said inventions, discoveries and decisions done by MEN not ME personally. Everything from cars to airplanes, the wheel, the telescope were all inventions by men, discoveries such as the atom, higgs boson, laws of physics etc, were discovered by men, all the wars of the world that have shaped the world's boundaries/borders were made by men, should I stop or you need more examples?

Uhhh women.....can't live with them nor without them!

[Welcome 58]

Honey, not vinegar.

[Steadfast Madcap 3,213]

Everything from cars to airplanes, the wheel, the telescope were all inventions by men, discoveries such as the atom, higgs boson, laws of physics etc, were discovered by men, all the wars of the world that have shaped the world's boundaries/borders were made by men, should I stop or you need more examples?

 

You ignore the fact that women have historically been unable to receive the same educational and career opportunities males have, especially in the sciences. Despite that, there have managed to be quite a few whose contributions you are conveniently overlooking.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_scientists_before_the_21st_century

 

Also we have no idea who invented the wheel, let's not make assumptions.

 

What does any of this have to do with whether or not public dress codes should apply equally to men and women again?

[Guest Octavio]

You ignore the fact that women have historically been unable to receive the same educational and career opportunities males have, especially in the sciences. Despite that, there have managed to be quite a few whose contributions you are conveniently overlooking.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_female_scientists_before_the_21st_century

 

Also we have no idea who invented the wheel, let's not make assumptions.

 

What does any of this have to do with whether or not public dress codes should apply equally to men and women again?

Like I said, there's always an exception to every rule. There have been and are very bright women in today's world. This is related to the dress code because women crave to be equal to men in everything!