Guest markb4

Female-Led Relationships

76 posts in this topic

Oh, and to address the initial question, Beau and I have an egalitarian marriage. I could lead if necessary--I AM the breadwinner at the moment--but I married him because his skill sets complement my own.

 

Yeah, he does car stuff and woodworking, so I guess that's "masculine," but he's also taken over all the grocery shopping and cooking, plus more than half of the cleaning, while he's been unemployed the last ten weeks or so. He's also even more cuddly and affectionate than I am. He's also better at taking care of me when I'm sick than I am at taking care of him when he's sick. And despite all of his lack of experience with kids/babies, he's done very well baby-sitting our friends' 1-year-old on two occasions, one of which was by himself.

 

We're both incredibly rational, to the point that when I find myself irrationally emotional, I know I'm being irrational and just wait for the tide of emotions to stop before I do anything. And I get really annoyed when people behave in irrational ways, even if I understand the emotional impetus behind their behavior.

 

Oh, and when I still just had my learning permit, I was driving with my mom around a curve on the highway, and an 18-wheeler had decided to illegally pass about four cars. If I hadn't slammed on my brakes and swerved to the right, my mom and I would have been killed. You really don't know what you would do until you're the one behind the wheel, so I'd hardly cite that as an example of logic vs. emotion.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about biology, but any desire that doesn't have to be forced is a natural desire.

 

If a man feels a natural desire to lead, protect, and provide. That just means that it's something he doesn't force himself to feel. It's just in him. I don't have a problem with that. I like that. I'd have a problem if he had a natural desire to never hear me out, a natural desire to dominate me, or belittle me. If this is his natural desire, and I didn't know before I married him, to me that is one of the very few legitimate grounds for divorce. Simply put, it's a HUGE lie to lie about who you actually are.

 

Just as some women feel a natural desire to have children. The feeling of wanting to be a mother just comes naturally to these women.

 

I want someone who feels a desire to protect me, lead (when I need it, and/or can't, but will hear me out if I do have something to say) and provide... I can do all of these things, but it would be nice to have someone to lean on and trust that much. For me this is a part of wanting an 'equally-led relationship'. If I allow him to be fulfilled, by protecting, providing, and leading. Then he will allow me to feel fulfilled by caring, being supportive, etc. AND, if those roles need to change from time to time, then we give each other that.

 

Edit: I do think one key of life is to remember that in some ways throughout life, we all change. For me, one of those ways is that I use to think I wanted to have more say in everything. And, while I do have opinions about things, and want to be heard out, I also want someone who will take that responsitilbity off of my shoulders sometimes. Because the responsibilty of some things is too much for some people.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly? The more I talk to different people, the more I learn about myself. I've, only over the past few years, realized that (although I CAN do anything I need or have to) I don't WANT that. I want someone to lean on. A helpmate in life. If I'm ever lucky enough to find that, I'll do my best to give him what he needs, because he will do the same for me. He will consider my feelings, and compromise with me rather than dominating me.

 

Everyone feels different desires. Aside from ones that actually hurt other (physically OR mentally) none of them is really wrong. It's just important to find someone who complements you. Each bringing something that the other needs. I don't think it has to be so difficult.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about biology, but any desire that doesn't have to be forced is a natural desire.

 

If a man feels a natural desire to lead, protect, and provide. That just means that it's something he doesn't force himself to feel. It's just in him. 

 

Just as some women feel a natural desire to have children. The feeling of wanting to be a mother just comes naturally to these women.

 

 

I don't think Belle was taking an issue with men and women who individually have desires that conform to typical societally-given gender roles. There's nothing wrong with individual men who want to be leaders, or individual women who crave a feeling of protection. However, it is quite another thing to make very global generalizations about the way *all* men and women *innately are.* That's what I think her post was trying to refute.

6 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know about biology, but any desire that doesn't have to be forced is a natural desire.

 

I agree that any desire that doesn't have to be forced is a desire that feels comfortable to that person, is a desire that would be easy for that person to live out. But if "natural" means "existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind" or "a person regarded as having an innate gift or talent for a particular task or activity," then I disagree that certain desires are natural. I think they are socialized. I think they are taught.

 

For example, it would be easy for a person to just say they're not good at cooking, that it doesn't come "naturally." I wasn't born with an ability to cook. I observed my parents cooking, and I wanted to learn. I started off helping, moved to cooking alone with supervision, and eventually cooked entire meals by myself. I was also given the freedom to screw up in the kitchen, without fear of repercussions. The first time I made chili, it was awful. I felt guilty because I wasted two pounds of ground beef, but my parents very kindly told me it was okay, and I was learning, and I would do better next time.

 

For a long time, my twin brother had no interest in cooking. He learned to cook at a much older age than I did. And then he became an excellent cook because he practiced.

 

My younger brother is probably the best cook, not because he's had more practice or he has more talent, but because he has the most passion for it. He's watched so many cooking shows, read gourmet cook books, and even learned how to "plate" things nicely.

 

None of that is natural--it's all learned.

 

Everyone feels different desires. Aside from ones that actually hurt other (physically OR mentally) none of them is really wrong. It's just important to find someone who complements you. Each bringing something that the other needs. I don't think it has to be so difficult.

 

Yes, I concur with this sentiment. I disagree with the previous comments in this thread that these complementary behaviors are dictated by biology.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand.

 

 

 

I may have misunderstood what everyone meant. Because everything I have heard and read, my entire life, supports the general outlook that men feel a need to lead, protect, and provide. While women feel a need to be a mother, etc etc. However, I have not read everything there is in the world to read, and I have not talked to everyone. Not that every man, or woman, feels this way, but just a lot of them do. I'm sure there are many many views. I suppose I could consult my anthorpologist friend. She might be able to give me a little better insight.

 

I apologize if I misinterpreted anyone.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand.

 

I may have misunderstood what everyone meant. Because everything I have heard and read, my entire life, supports the general outlook that men feel a need to lead, protect, and provide. While women feel a need to be a mother, etc etc. 

 

But you yourself have talked at length about how you don't have the desire to be a mother, or, at most, would want to adopt a much older child, right? So you yourself disprove the idea that all women want to have babies. Sure, lots of women *do* feel that desire (and lots of men -- my boyfriend loves working with children, and is waaaaay better with young kids than I am), but all you need is one exception to disprove a rule.  :) 

 

And, like Belle said, a lot of it is socialization as well. I have heard all my life that motherhood is an extremely fulfilling path to take in life, so logically, it created a strong desire in me to have that experience myself. Just because the average man or woman in a given culture wants a certain thing, does not mean it is a desire that all humans are biologically predisposed to.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That was kind of my point. I don't fit the general rule of what I thought I was suppose to feel. That was what I was getting at. MY natural desire it not, necessarily, to give birth but I do love children. Babies just scare me. I would LOVE to give a loving home to a child, though. That is what comes naturally to me. The feeling of not wanting to have to give birth (unless God sees fit otherwise) is what comes naturally to me. I was just saying that what I grew up around fit the 'normal' view of what is 'natural'. That's all. Like I said, I believe we are all different, and finding a complement to ourselves is the key to life.

 

Edit: By the way... my cultural background made me feel like it was natural to want to give birth, and that my desire not to want that was weird.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

From the BBC one:

 

"But experts have questioned whether it can be that simple, arguing it is a huge leap to extrapolate from anatomical differences to try to explain behavioural variation between the sexes. Also, brain connections are not set and can change throughout life."

 

"We know that there is no such thing as 'hard wiring' when it comes to brain connections. Connections can change throughout life, in response to experience and learning."

"However, he said care must be taken in drawing conclusions from the study, as the precise relationships between how our brains are wired and our performance on particular tasks needed further investigation.

'We cannot say yet that one is causing the other.'"

"A more subtle possibility is that bringing a child up in a particular gender could affect how our brains are wired."

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's an article that refutes the study talked about by BBC.

 

"Yes, men and women probably do have differently wired brains, but there is little convincing evidence to suggest these variations are caused by anything other than cultural factors. Males develop improved spatial skills not because of an innate superiority but because they are expected and encouraged to be strong at sport, which requires expertise at catching and throwing. Similarly, it is anticipated that girls will be more emotional and talkative, and so their verbal skills are emphasised by teachers and parents. As the years pass, these different lifestyles produce variations in brain wiring – which is a lot more plastic than most biological determinists realise."

"'If you map the distribution of scores for verbal skills of boys and of girls, you get two graphs that overlap so much you would need a very fine pencil indeed to show the difference between them. Yet people ignore this huge similarity between boys and girls and instead exaggerate wildly the tiny difference between them. It drives me wild.'"

"'They talk as if there is a typical male and a typical female brain – they even provide a diagram – but they ignore the fact that there is a great deal of variation within the sexes in terms of brain structure. You simply cannot say there is a male brain and a female brain.'"

"In fact, Verma's results showed that the neuronal connectivity differences between the sexes increased with the age of her subjects. Such a finding is entirely consistent with the idea that cultural factors are driving changes in the brain's wiring. The longer we live, the more our intellectual biases are exaggerated and intensified by our culture, with cumulative effects on our neurons. In other words, the intellectual differences we observe between the sexes are not the result of different genetic birthrights but are a consequence of what we expect a boy or a girl to be."

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A WordPress blog that provides dating advice? Yeah, okay, let's pretend to take the pseudo-science that someone left in the comments seriously for a second.

 

Google any lines from the scientific mumbo-jumbo and find me a legitimate source to back it up.

 

What I found did not. Source Source

 

Yes, female brains have a larger limbic system, but science does not take that and conclude, "The combined over influence from irrational, emotional centers of the brain together with the propensity to bounce around frenetically between hemispheres, leads to a less rational, more emotional product."

 

WSJ requires a subscription, so I can't even access an abstract.

 

Steadfast already quoted from the BBC.

 

That leaves The Guardian, which is a summary of a scientific study. I read the entire scientific study instead. I'll quote from the conclusion.

 

Taken together, these results reveal fundamental sex differences in the structural architecture of the human brain. Male brains during development are structured to facilitate within-lobe and within-hemisphere connectivity, with networks that are transitive, modular, and discrete, whereas female brains have greater interhemispheric connectivity and greater cross-hemispheric participation. Within-hemispheric cortical processing along the posterior-anterior dimension involves the linking of perception to action, and motor action is mediated ipsilaterally by the cerebellum. Greater within-hemispheric supratentorial connectivity combined with greater cross-hemispheric cerebellar connectivity would confer an efficient system for coordinated action in males. Greater interhemispheric connectivity in females would facilitate integration of the analytical and sequential reasoning modes of the left hemisphere with the spatial, intuitive processing of information of the right hemisphere. A behavioral study on the entire sample, of which this imaging study is a subset, demonstrated pronounced sex differences, with the females outperforming males on attention, word and face memory, and social cognition tests and males performing better on spatial processing and motor and sensorimotor speed (2). These differences were mainly observed in midadolescent age (12–14 y), where males performed significantly faster on motor tasks and more accurately on spatial memory tasks. Other behavioral studies have found similar sex differences (41, 42). These behavioral studies are carried out at a denser age sampling, which is not possible for the imaging studies because the sample size in the subgroups will be too small to identify meaningful differences.

(Emphasis mine)

 

Yes, this study concludes there are brain differences between men and women and behavioral differences between men and women.

 

It does NOT conclude causation between the two. Furthermore, none of the significant sex differences have anything to do with one sex being better suited to leadership, the workforce, or parenting. Also, the one complementary behavioral study that can be accessed concluded that sex differences were eliminated once factoring in self-perception of skill, aka socialized thoughts/behavior.

 

In fact, considering the behavioral sex differences were greatest in the 12-14 age set, when peer pressure is often at its worst and self-selected friend groups are largely one sex, one could argue their experiences impact both their brain differences and behavioral differences. It's scientific fact that our experiences impact our brains, even from infancy.

4 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how people insult others posts for citing blogs whilst they themselves link to blogs. It was stated that men and women are wired differently, than citation was requested, and I provided one.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I love how people insult others posts for citing blogs whilst they themselves link to blogs. It was stated that men and women are wired differently, than citation was requested, and I provided one.

 

Here's the bio of the author of the "blog" I cited.

 

Christian Jarrett, Ph.D is a psychologist and author of The Rough Guide To Psychology, shortlisted for the BPS Book Award 2011. He’s currently writing Great Myths of the Brain (Wiley-Blackwell), due for completion in 2014. His writing has appeared in The Times, The Guardian, New Scientist, BBC Focus, Psychologies, Wired UK, Outdoor Fitness, and many other outlets. Christian is blog editor for design collaboration platform InvisionApp.com. He also writes the Brain Watch blog for WIRED and is a columnist for 99U.com.

 

 

You linked to a website that teaches men how to bed women.

 

I think there's a slight difference in caliber here.

5 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't matter what I link to. I could link to a letter from God himself, and if he didn't agree with you his response would be dismissed. Maybe that source was not the best. But all I am trying to do is help my friends on here post, without being attacked. Like what has happened to a few other members.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Doesn't matter what I link to. I could link to a letter from God himself, and if he didn't agree with you his response would be dismissed. Maybe that source was not the best. But all I am trying to do is help my friends on here post, without being attacked. Like what has happened to a few other members.

 

Uh, yeah, with my background in history and knowledge in analyzing primary sources I'd challenge the authenticity of it.

 

Asking people to stop making scientific claims with zero supporting evidence is not an attack. You'll notice I haven't challenged or dismissed a single comment regarding personal preferences in regards to marriage. I just think it's wrong to state something unequivocally as scientific fact when it's not.

6 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to be of the type that thinks that nothing that goes against your beliefs can be a fact.  That if it goes against you it must be fiction.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You seem to be of the type that thinks that nothing that goes against your beliefs can be a fact.  That if it goes against you it must be fiction.

 

This is what we call an ad hominem.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, I'm just intelligent enough to differentiate between fact and opinion. As I stated above, I have no problem with people's personal opinions regarding gender roles within their own marriages. However, as evidenced by the multiple scientific studies I provided, plus observations of one published parent and historical chronicles of women, it is not factual to state that men are more logical or better equipped to lead due to biological sex differences.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Calling myself intelligent is now the equivalent of calling other people stupid?

 

Your last several posts have added nothing further to this discussion except to misconstrue a discussion as an attack, question my character, and deliberately twist my words.

 

If you don't have anything constructive to say, maybe consider saying nothing at all.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, call people stupid nice tactic.

You gave what people asked for. If others can't accept the fact that you gave what was requested then that's on them. Just ignore ignorance and keep stating and supporting your beliefs. A lot of us agree with you and those that don't, oh well. You're a smart guy not a stupid one.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maul4014, I think you're being a bit overly-sensitive. Whenever you (not you specifically, but people in general) make a claim, especially if you cite a source, it will be challenged. Nothing is above criticism, it's all part of discussion. Granted maybe Belle Femme was a bit...sarcastic in some of her posts, but none of it was towards you personally and she certainly never insinuated you were stupid. If you disagree then come up with evidence to counter it. 

 

So just breathe, listen to some Enya and chill out, please.

 

 

9 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now