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Chivalry. Dead or Dormant?

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So, I'm guessing that this varies from man to man. Just thought I'd get your thoughts. :) Is chivalry dead? Or does it just lie dormant most of the time? Is it something that you do when you are taking a girl out? Or, because I have picked up that there are some here that haven't really courted much, do you PLAN on doing? Does it depend on the woman?

 

Also, what does this mean to you? For instance, opening doors, pulling out chairs, gentle hand kisses, stand up when she leaves the table or returns, taking care of the check unless it's been discussed otherwise, etc.

 

I'm not asking because of personal reasons, I know how I feel about it. :) I'm just very curios how the men on the forum think about chivalry, and being a gentleman.

 

Edit: Also, what I mean by 'does it depend on the woman' is two things. 1. Does it depend on how she responds... as in if she is gracious about it, or tells you she prefers to do those things herself? and 2. Does it depend on how 'into her' you are, or would you treat any date you go on with that same level of respect and grace?

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I was raised with traditional values so chivalry comes natural to me. Though after a few bad experiences of being accused of ulterior motives, I toned it down a bit. I know these incidents are the exceptions, not the rule but I feel like I have to be more careful. It's a different world today than it was a generation ago. It's sad that sometimes it gets looked down upon. Though I do it because I feel it's right regardless of what society thinks. It's not dead, but it is dying I think. I don't just to it to a girl I'm interested in, I do it for all women. Though a girl I'm interested in might get a little more attention than the rest ;) Unless she's trying to kill me, then she can open her own doors. lol

 

To me, it's not so much the actions that come with it but more of having the attitude of respecting women. Once you have that mindset, your actions naturally follow. It's not even something you really think about. It becomes instinctual.

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I'm not really a big fan of the term "chivalry." It dates back to what a knight's code was and medieval knights aren't people I want to replicate.

Anyway, that being said, I do some of the things often associated with "chivalry," but I don't really do them to be chivalrous. I frequently open doors for people, but I do it for men and women. I'm cautiously polite in conversation if it's with people I don't know well enough. Sometimes this is shaped based on the sex of the people involved in the conversation and what generally would be more offensive or questionable to a man or woman.

In terms of a date, I probably would go a little above and beyond during the first or maybe even first few dates. Maybe open a car door, door to place we're entering, pull her chair out, take her jacket off, ect....I'd kind of feel out the situation. I'd tone it down as we date more, though, because doing it all the time is weirdly ritualistic to me. It's unnatural to me. I'm more of an equal rights kind of guy. I'd still do a lot of stuff to be nice, though, as opposed to wanting to be chivalrous. Even in regards to the first few dates it would be more to be nice than chivalrous, but, let's face it, it might impress some girls. I might view it as being kind of silly and unnecessary, but if it scores some points with her, why not?

In terms of paying, right now I lean more toward the "whoever asks, pays" line of thought.

In sum, I guess I don't really believe in doing things spefically for women, but often do things for men and women. There's a few exceptions (I might be more inclined to help a woman carry something heavy because, in general, women aren't physically as strong), but that's my general view. In terms of dating, on the other hand, I'll want to do nice things for her since she's a woman I'm dating. But, I'll probably do a bit more simply for the sake of impressing her. And, hey, sometimes we give in to traditions even if we view them as silly.

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...Unless she's trying to kill me, then she can open her own doors. lol

Ummm... if you KNOW she's trying to kill you, would you not open the door for her (so she is not on your six) and then close it real quick and run for your life? :)

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Ummm... if you KNOW she's trying to kill you, would you not open the door for her (so she is not on your six) and then close it real quick and run for your life? :)

 

Perhaps I should rephrase myself. I will not be opening the door for her, the door will be slammed shut! :P

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Perhaps I should rephrase myself. I will not be opening the door for her, the door will be slammed shut! :P

lol OK fair enough. :D

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I don't just to it to a girl I'm interested in, I do it for all women. 

 

That was my first thought when I read the topic title!  So good for you, Vince!!

 

I went to see a movie this past weekend with my brother and his wife.  I was a few steps behind them at the theater door and it was pretty much slammed in my face.  I think a lot of men do it to impress a woman, but they tire of it quickly.  Or they only do it for that special woman.  

 

But for the chivalrous men out there, keep it up!  Some women will watch how you not only treat her, but others around you.  And if you want her to melt at your feet...well.  lol

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Anyway, that being said, I do some of the things often associated with "chivalry," but I don't really do them to be chivalrous. I frequently open doors for people, but I do it for men and women. I'm cautiously polite in conversation if it's with people I don't know well enough. Sometimes this is shaped based on the sex of the people involved in the conversation and what generally would be more offensive or questionable to a man or woman.

 

Chivalry is dead. Long live politeness for everyone!

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I'm not really a big fan of the term "chivalry." It dates back to what a knight's code was and medieval knights aren't people I want to replicate.

 

 

a-lot-of-people-misuse-the-word-chivalry

I think chivalry can offend some feminists...I hold open doors for both genders for strangers. When it comes to people I know it depends on the person and I guess how much I like them. For some its a pleasure to do these little things but not with others. So I think its main use will be for wife/romantic interest, mother, sister, female friends.

 

When it comes to female aquaintances with no romantic interest it depends on the expectation. While the example may not be an instance of chivalry I think it would transfer: I know this one girl who would expect "service" in the atmosphere that it was expected of others. When I eventually tired of her commanding me around and refused her (e.g. fetch her some water from the kitchen when I'm not any closer to the kitchen than she is) she'd get all offended and annoyed. And that is a big turnoff for any future niceties. Only some people get to request/command something of me (with or without a please) and expect it to be done so don't camouflage an order as a request.

Similarly, if someone is in the possition to graciously expect to be treated with chivalry (my wife my queen) by me and she makes that clear by e.g. waiting for me to open the door because she treasures such shows of respect and love then I think its fine but not if its in an attitude of hautiness and that I ought to be serving her merely because of my gender. If this girl stood before a door waiting for me to open it I'd be enjoying the wait. I have patience for such things  :lol: If you want to be treated like a lady, act like one.

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Ah, yes, this may be true. I did go look it up. However, considering that the part about being gallant and courteous is there, it is still a valid question. It may be a modern outlook but the outlook of chivalry that is generally known is more directed at how men should treat women. I also don't argue that we should all treat each other with respect and courtesy. However, I guess I wasn't clear enough. These behaviors that I am referring are the part of the code that refers to women. Though a person might open the door, or hold a door, or things like that with just anyone. A straight man wouldn't, in all likelihood, hold the chair for another man to sit down in before returning to his chair. He wouldn't necessarily stand up, out of respect, if another man leaves or returns. Or take another guys hand to get out of a car, or even just open the door for him. I agree that there are things that people should do, just as a general courtesy, such as opening doors, or helping carry things if the load looks heavy, but there are some courtesies that some (I'd even go so far as to say 'most') men aren't going to do for another man, simply because they would feel it would hurt their 'manlihood'... even though they are just being nice. I do agree that if the woman is haughty about it, then she is not showing any respect in return and, just my opinion, that's just not cool. However, there are those of us women (I am one) who feels that these things are sweet, and I would appreciate a man showing me this kind of care and respect. Coming to my front door to pick me up. Walking on the outside of the sidewalk. Anything I have mentioned already, and the list does go on.

 

Again, I guess I wasn't clear on MY view of what chivalry is, or what I was really asking. Sorry about that. To me there is a difference between common courtesy and chivalry. To ME chivalry is a way of life for a man. In, not only, the way he portrays himself to the outside world, but in the way it portrays himself to a woman he could fall in love with (because she will eventually see what he is really like if it's not a part of his being).

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I always open doors to girls and women (and old people), I enter after them in the train or bus and yeah I do sometimes kiss the hand instead of the cheek (when I know them good, otherwise just on the cheek).

 

I never look in their eyes when I'm holding open a door for them, I don't even try to look their way, it's just something that comes from inside me. I have a bad feeling if I don't do it. 

 

And no I don't feel special or chivalrous for doing that, it's just me and not a big deal.

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These are just common courtesy things, that are considered to be special... at least where I am from, because most young people and men don't do these things. What I mean are the other acts. Opening a car door. Taking a womans hand to help her step out of the car, or over something. Standing when she comes to the table, or leaves. Going to her door to pick her up, instead of just honking a horn. Etc, etc. These are things most men DON'T do for almost anyone, and probably WOULD NOT do for other men. Things that are special to just women, in general, or a special woman in their life.

 

Somehow I don't know how to make my meaning clear. I'm sorry that most people seem to be misunderstanding me.

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To women it's considered chivalry because they like such things.

 

To me, it's just a method for men to impress girls or it's just because they are kind. That's it. Chivalry doesn't exist.

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I was going to say a LOT of stuff here. :) However, it's stuff I have already said in the post (and in a response). So, I'm just going to leave it at this. I asked to see what mens opinions are about it. I figure everyone has an opinion. They are not wrong, they are just differing. I figure, if I am meant to find someone, he will feel the same as I do on it. I was just curious about others thoughts. Apparently, this is just one more way that I'm am quite odd. :) I'm cool with that.

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No you are not odd, some like it and some do not, whatever I've said is just my definition of 'chivalry'. You may define these special behaviour towards women as chivalry, which is totally not a wrong term to me.

 

If my woman was someone like you, I'd gladly emphasize this 'chivalry' just for her, as the act is much more important than the definition itself. Love, is just like that, her becoming you and you becoming her.

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I'd probably do most or even all of those things on dates, and I would hope that I would even do most of them well into marriage, at least out on dates with my wife. I do think being a gentleman is important, and I believe a man's wife of all people deserves that aspect of her husband. 

 

The only caveat I can think of is in regards to standing up when she enters or leaves the room. I can't honestly say that that would go on indefinitely, at least at home, as that could be a lot of standing up and sitting down. If it did, I'd probably have to ask her to pick one room or the other for a while, just so I could get some rest.  ;) If I had daughters, too, well, I guess I'd just have to stay standing all day.

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I don't mean to come off as disrespectful at all. I suspect that a lot of women out there like that kind of behavior from a guy.

 

But quite simply put, the romantacised version of "chivalry" has been (for the most part) destroyed by the women themselves. I'm sure that you realize that most non-waiter men are interested in having sex as quickly as possible. If they want sex right away, and you are a committed waiter, they will move onto somebody else rather than join you in waiting. If these guys (non-waiters) would have any reason to believe that "chivalry" was an efficient means to get sex, they would be doing it all the time, for any woman they found remotely attractive. All of the ladies' men that I know are big time flirts, but have no respect whatsoever for the women they are trying to use. They are using all the tricks they have learned (or already knew) to flirt, lie, and use the women they find attractive. They put in a lot of time, effort, money, or energy in order to have casual sex with lots of women. And chivalrous behavior is never a method they use, because it is not a method that works.

 

I have been the "nice" guy all of my life, and I have hated every moment of it. As far as attracting women, there seems to be no greater character flaw than treating them with respect. My roommates in college were a bunch of ladies men. They never showed the women any level of respect, kicked them out of the apartment when they started giving them problems, consistentely referred to them as "bitches" and "hos", and were always able to get them to have sex. I was always the nice guy, and therefore I got lumped into the "friend" zone. Which means, they didn't care about me in the least, but would come running to me if they had a problem with my roommates. One young lady I knew was having sex with one of my roommates. She thought she might be pregnant (she wasn't). When she told him this, he flat out told her, "I don't care if you are pregnant. You're not getting any money out of me." She comes crying to me, asks for some help from me, I talk to her like she wants. She finds out she's not pregnant. And she's back to having sex with my roommate. He eventually breaks up with her, and she goes off to some other guy. Gets pregnant by him. Drops out of school and is now a single mother in permanent poverty. This is all very sad. But it is what the world has fallen to. Not the way the world is supposed to be, but the way the world is.

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I have been the "nice" guy all of my life, and I have hated every moment of it. As far as attracting women, there seems to be no greater character flaw than treating them with respect. My roommates in college were a bunch of ladies men. They never showed the women any level of respect, kicked them out of the apartment when they started giving them problems, consistentely referred to them as "bitches" and "hos", and were always able to get them to have sex. I was always the nice guy, and therefore I got lumped into the "friend" zone. Which means, they didn't care about me in the least, but would come running to me if they had a problem with my roommates. One young lady I knew was having sex with one of my roommates. She thought she might be pregnant (she wasn't). When she told him this, he flat out told her, "I don't care if you are pregnant. You're not getting any money out of me." She comes crying to me, asks for some help from me, I talk to her like she wants. She finds out she's not pregnant. And she's back to having sex with my roommate. He eventually breaks up with her, and she goes off to some other guy. Gets pregnant by him. Drops out of school and is now a single mother in permanent poverty. This is all very sad. But it is what the world has fallen to. Not the way the world is supposed to be, but the way the world is.

To be fair, your experiences with your roommates can hardly be blamed on the majority of women folk out there. You said your roomies were ladies men. I wouldn't expect the females in their lives to be much greater quality than they are. If they are the douchebags that you describe them to be, then the kind of women they attract would not be the kind you're looking for anyways.

I say this in love, not condemnation, my friend because I was once in your shoes. But there is enough blame to go around, including you and I. I completely agree with you in that I don't have respect for women who consciously make bad choices over and over again. I may have pity for them, but no respect. At the same time, we as "nice guys," whatever that means, share some blame for continuing allowing ourselves to be used. Think about it, the only reason we keep being indignant about it is because we allow ourselves to be used and abused by others. There is a huge difference between genuinely helping people and being taken advantage of. I wish I learned that a long time ago. People in general are selfish by nature. So in your case, if one of those girls keep coming to you with their drama, just walk away. Nothing you do or say is going to change her ways. Only she can make that choice just like you can make that choice not to be used,

Trust me, I know how easy it is to be jaded. But I encourage you to have faith. There are lots of great girls out there, especially the wonderful ladies here. They haven't given up on us guys, so let's not give up on them :)

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Hmmm... Dave, I am sorry that these are the only women you seem to have been around. I mean, I can't speak for all of womankind, but there are some of us out there that like the 'good guy'. I'm not going to lie. I spent time with (never slept with, or anything... I'm an all the clothes stay on, kind of girl) a 'ladies man' ONE TIME. I did not like it. I also have to admit, that if he had been ANYONE else, or if I had KNOWN this about him, I would never have given him a chance. The ONLY reason he got a chance with me, was because I knew him in high school and THOUGHT (naively) that he was a 'good guy' and had had a crush on him for so many years.

 

I'd like to add this... please don't lose faith in all of us, based on the handful of us that you have met. Some of us really do want to be treated with respect, care, love, honor, and (by the definitions that I have stated as MY point of view) chivalry. In other words, we want to be treated like the true 'lady' that we are.

 

This is why I asked this question. I have never believed it when people have said 'chivalry is dead'. I have always felt that it was more of a 'I use it with the right girl, and treat everyone with a certain level of common courtesy' kind of thing (like it's not always there, but a guy will show it if he REALLY is INTO you), vs a 'women don't want that, they want to be treated like dirt' kind of thing.

 

By the way? A TRUE 'lady' wants to be treated like one. No matter what income is involved. The acts I have stated above are completely free to perform. Even if you go to McDs you can pull out a chair, etc. Heck, you can do that for a nice romantic candlelit dinner at home. :) You show the right lady that you are a TRUE gentleman, and she will appreciate it... or, she will let you know that it's too much, in which case, if you do like her, you just back off a bit. I'm the girl who would enjoy a man I'm interested in giving me that kind of care and attention. I can't promise anyone will find love because of these acts (because chemistry is also very important) but, for some of us, a guy who uses common courtesy to everyone, and treats a lady like a lady, is going to have a much better chance than the 'average schlub' down the street who's going through girl after girl.

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I agree with Vince. The kind of women that they were getting were no better than they were. But they were consistently getting them. One guy I used to work with had sex with half of the women that I worked with, including 1 married one (now divorced). The other half of the women were 20 or more years older than him, and he didn't find them attractive. Watching him work his way through literally every young, attractive woman I worked with on a daily basis proved 2 things to me.

 

1) I didn't see any woman regularly who wasn't throwing herself at him, but scarcely able to talk to me.

2) Therefore, I didn't see any women in my age range that would be the kind I am looking for.

 

But you are right about how it is very easy to get jaded. I wish I wasn't like this, but it was a whole lifetime of negative experiences that made me this way.

 

And Libs, it's good to know that some women can appreciate the nice guy. I don't think I've ever run across any, but it would be a nice thought to think they exist.

 

As far as you finding somebody who is "chivalrous", yes I think it is possible. I know it might break the so-called "romance" that you place on it, but if you find a guy you like, you could try telling him that is a behavior you are attracted to. It could very well be that it is a type of behavior he would like to do, but doesn't do because so many women look down on it.

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Dave. I never thought of that. I can see a downside to that approach, but it might be worth a try. :)

 

Oh, and I assure you, we exist. Just pray about it, and try and keep your faith. :) God provides everything we need. We, sometimes, just don't know what it is that we need.

 

Edit: Dave also remember, you get what you put out there. It's just that maybe the 'quality' you are putting out there is on a higher level than what those other 'so-called' men are putting out there. Or, maybe those women just don't have very high self esteem... maybe they are like you, and don't think there are any really decent men out there. So, they just take what they can get. It's hard to say.

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I can see what you are saying, libs, but if what I am putting out there is a higher "quality" why were the women flocking to the guys putting out the lower "quality"? Granted, I can see, it has something to do with the fact that the women are lower "quality" themselves, what with throwing themselves at the ladies man. Definitely no waiters there. Definitely not women with values similar to mine.

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You may just be a 'one in a million'. Some of us just take longer to find that other person who also is. Of course, I also have my moments when I think maybe I am meant to be alone. I mean, if I haven't met someone by now, what are the odds? I am, after all, nearly 35. I'm ok with that. However, there is a big part of me that feels like it WILL happen. My faith rarely stays lost for long.

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Well, I most certainly am "different". I am an idealist. And a lot of my beliefs may seem strange to some people. But the fact that every young lady that I worked with was throwing themselves at my friend tells me everything I need to know about them. And it hurts. It hurts believing that because I am different, no woman could be interested in me. And it hurts knowing that if I do wind up marrying, there is a good chance of being in a sexless marriage with a woman who was frequently having sex with guys who were nothing like me. The thought of being nothing more than a means to an end.

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