Guest markb4

Men Making Decisions

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Hey gals,

 

So I hear a lot of girls say that they want their man to be someone who can make decisions and take charge of situations. I've also heard a lot of girls say that they don't really want the man to be the "head of the household" so to speak and want to be able to make joint decisions together.

 

So is it like a balance? Like, do you want your man to make some decisions and then ask you for your opinion/say on other decisions? If so, how do we know which decisions we have to make by ourselves and which we have to ask you about?

 

Or does it vary from woman to woman? Like one woman would want her man to make all the decisions and another would want to share in the decision-making process? Etc?

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I suppose for me, I see a substantial difference between a guy who is able to take charge and make decisions when needed, and a guy who expects me to submit to his judgement when it comes to all of the substantial decisions that affect us.

 

For small things that predominately affect him, like what shoes to buy, I don't want to have to be the guiding force behind that. I'm not his mom. Nor would I put up with him trying to dictate small details of my life (like what perfume I wear). For small things that affect both of us, like what to get for dinner, then he can (and should) decide on some nights, and I can (and should), decide on other nights. I find it really annoying when someone either never gives any input into that kind of thing, or always wants to be the person who decides.

 

If the decision in question is something life-altering that will affect both of us, then I want the ultimate decision to be something we work out together. But I want him to know what he wants, and to be able to argue for that position if necessary, just like I would know what I want and be able to argue for that. Basically, he has to have a backbone, and be willing to stand up for what seems right to him, but also willing to listen and change his mind when persuaded, or occasionally be willing to 'take one for the team,' as it were. I also want him to be good in a crisis situation; that would be where 'taking charge' is most important to me.

 

Of course, this is going to vary from woman to woman. Some women are big on being submissive, while other women can be really domineering.

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I was raised to think for myself (and to reap the benefits / suffer the consequences all by myself too). I have been taking my own decisions for more than two decades now (deliberate usage of word 'decades' to make myself see how hard it is for me to accept advice or rely on someone else’s judgment :)) and I' pretty smug about it too  :D, so I would be extremely cautious if I were in a situation where I would have to hand the reins to someone else.

 

Having said that, I accept that two heads can be better than one and once I establish that he has sound decision making skills (am I making this sound like I am planning to interview and recruit him?) I would trust him to be the “head of the householdâ€. I am not the cook-maid-nanny-housekeeper type of person, so this does not mean that just because I can compromise I would take orders from anyone. It means that we should be able to recognize each others' area of expertise and work on synergy (there I go again!).

 

I'll say it simply, I’m all for a partnership in Christ where we both actively seek God’s guidance to make our decisions - every step of the way :).

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I think it varies from woman to woman. In order to know where she stand, I think it's best to just talk to her about it. Ask how she, as an individual with her own mind, feels about it.

 

I mean, I want a guy who talks to me about stuff and we try and decide stuff together, or comprimise somehow, on anything big. what I want from a guy when it comes to making decisions are things like... Can he decide and make a plan for a date, based on getting to know me and what we both might find interesting or fun? Can he plan vacations, if we're married? If I am indecisive, will he be able to 'read me' and help me figure things out... as I hope to be able to do for him?

 

I'm not sure that helps.

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I have a brain I'm independent and don't depend on anyone for things. It's going to be 50/50 or 80/20(sorry a bit of control freak here) i don't believe in the whole women must submit stuff

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I have a brain I'm independent and don't depend on anyone for things. It's going to be 50/50 or 80/20(sorry a bit of control freak here) i don't believe in the whole women must submit stuff

 

So you don't believe women should be submissve, yet you want your man to be submissive to accomodate your controlling tendencies? How does that work?

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So you don't believe women should be submissve, yet you want your man to be submissive to accomodate your controlling tendencies? How does that work?

I'm not saving that. I'm willing to work 50/50. I'm not that much of a control freak. I don't have to be in control of everything. I'm not saying a guy should be submissive to me. I'm saying that I would like things to get done. I can depend on myself to get things done but if my husband won't get things done then I need to take it into my own hands. And nobody should be submissive.

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i dunno i'm just too lazy to argue most of the time lol he can make like 90% of the decisions (i'm gonna marry a guy who has a level head anyway so i'm sure his ideas won't be too crazy lol).

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You may say I'm a bit religious BUT I don't care haha ;)

My answer is this:

God created Man FIRST and woman SECOND. We women were/are created to be a helpmate to our husbands. Men were/are to be the head of his household. Also know as King and Queen. The king is to make his decision and he MAY (doesn't need or have to) ask his queen what she thinks and if they are in agreement the decision stands but if there is fault they talk it out or pray about it hoping to find a balance. Some call it arguing but I call it an open debate between two that will eventually become one in a decision respectable unto both parties. Now that doesn't mean that you guys can force yourselves upon your wives or run over them it just means she's there to help you... and ladies it doesn't mean you open your mouth every time you think your husband is wrong, it just means you let him do what he think is right and if he's wrong he'll use wisdom to go to you and ask your opinion. I am a bit more submissive (or old fashioned) than most women but I can be dominant in some ways if need be but I need/want a dominant husband. Women always wonder why they are single, it's because you're trying to play both parts. You're not equal to man you're just an extention to him, to help him not rule him. Men often wonder why they are still single, it's because you won't stand up and speak out. You allow women to beat you down with the so called "mama's boy" title instead of the "Man of God" title. Needless to say no matter why you are single just know God said not your turn and you just need to sit, back enjoy your life, focus on your work and education, and let go of that "I can take care of myself and I'm Independent" mentally because if you could do it all alone ladies there would be no need for you to have a husband and gentlemen there would be no need for a wife and you can be alone for the rest of your natural born life.

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I would expect all major decisions to be made by myself and my husband together - after all, they'll more than likely affect both of us so the decision needs to be mutually agreeable.  Personally, I would find a relationship where the man had the final say and made all the decisions to be stifling to say the least.  I am from a family of strong women, and, like Raz have been living independently for more than a decade.  That said, I would not expect or want my husband to be a walkover and let me call all the shots - I'd hope we could discuss it, take each other's opinions into account and come to an agreement. 

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 You're not equal to man you're just an extention to him, to help him not rule him. 

 

I could not disagree with this statement more.  Men and women are equal in my eyes.  They may have different roles, but I totally disagree that women are a mere 'extension of a man'.  

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I guess if men and women aren't equal, Jasmine, you don't need voting rights, the ability to drive, own property or have a job.

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You may say I'm a bit religious BUT I don't care haha ;)

My answer is this:

God created Man FIRST and woman SECOND. We women were/are created to be a helpmate to our husbands. Men were/are to be the head of his household. Also know as King and Queen. The king is to make his decision and he MAY (doesn't need or have to) ask his queen what she thinks and if they are in agreement the decision stands but if there is fault they talk it out or pray about it hoping to find a balance. Some call it arguing but I call it an open debate between two that will eventually become one in a decision respectable unto both parties. Now that doesn't mean that you guys can force yourselves upon your wives or run over them it just means she's there to help you... and ladies it doesn't mean you open your mouth every time you think your husband is wrong, it just means you let him do what he think is right and if he's wrong he'll use wisdom to go to you and ask your opinion. I am a bit more submissive (or old fashioned) than most women but I can be dominant in some ways if need be but I need/want a dominant husband. Women always wonder why they are single, it's because you're trying to play both parts. You're not equal to man you're just an extention to him, to help him not rule him. Men often wonder why they are still single, it's because you won't stand up and speak out. You allow women to beat you down with the so called "mama's boy" title instead of the "Man of God" title. Needless to say no matter why you are single just know God said not your turn and you just need to sit, back enjoy your life, focus on your work and education, and let go of that "I can take care of myself and I'm Independent" mentally because if you could do it all alone ladies there would be no need for you to have a husband and gentlemen there would be no need for a wife and you can be alone for the rest of your natural born life.

Sorry but I wasn't created to make a man happy. Men and women should be equal. It was only a few decades ago that women could work, vote, and go to school. I shouldn't be continuing to fight for my rights as a woman when women already fought this fight. I'm not going to let a man make all the decisions and stand behind him agreeing with everything he says or does. I'm a person not property.

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I stand by my statement. We are not equal. If we were all body parts would be the same and God wouldn't have made it perfectly clear of our duties as men and women. Yes we can do some of the same things but that doesn't make us equal at all. There is MALE and FEMALE. You all believe what you want I stand by my statement, what I've studied, and what I've been taught. I will not comment any further. :)

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In Genesis 1, God creates man and woman at the same time and commands them, together, to procreate and to take care of the Earth. That's it.

 

But if you want to discuss Genesis 2:18, in the original Hebrew, woman is referred to as "ezer kenegdo."

 

Take a look at this.

 

In the Old Testament, the word EZER appears 21 times in 3 different contexts: the creation of women, when Israel applied for military aid, and in reference to God as Israel’s helper for military purposes. God isn’t a “helpmeet†in the watered down way we’ve been taught or understood that word in our churches though, right? No, our God is more than that: he’s a strong helper, a warrior, an ever present help in times of trouble, bringing more than simple might or power.

 

God created the first woman out of Adam’s side, and he named his daughter after an aspect of his own character and nature. By naming his daughters – us! – ezer kenegdo, God did not name women as secondary helpmeet “assistants.†No, women were created and called out right at creation as warriors.

 

Source

 

 

 

We are not equal. If we were all body parts would be the same

 

Jasmine, this explanation is VERY similar to past justification of slavery using supposed biological facts to claim Europeans are the superior race.

 

Are we not equal despite the differences in our skin color?

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I stand by my statement. We are not equal. If we were all body parts would be the same and God wouldn't have made it perfectly clear of our duties as men and women. Yes we can do some of the same things but that doesn't make us equal at all. There is MALE and FEMALE. You all believe what you want I stand by my statement, what I've studied, and what I've been taught. I will not comment any further. :)

Sorry but this makes no sense at all.

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Not religious in many ways, but that's a great picture. I just do not get the "we aren't equal". All human beings are equal, claiming women aren't equal to men justifies all prejudice against them, and that's not right.

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I understand what Jasmine is saying, though some people today are so far removed from true Christianity, or believe such a watered down version that it sounds foreign.  

 

I don't want to get into an argument, but I will briefly try to explain this from my own understanding of it.

 

When God created Eve, it was to fulfill a need because Adam was alone, and no animal was capable of filling that need.  She was created to be a part of Adam's life.  Nevertheless, while a woman remains single, she is free to make her own decisions.  And women are considered spiritually equal before God, married or not.  But men and women are not physically equal, not in design (thank God) nor in physical strength.

 

When a woman enters a Christian marriage, her role changes.  She doesn't become a lesser person, or have less value nor should she in any way be oppressed (unlike the teachings of some religions, e.g. the LDS or Islam).  But she does become subject to her husband as God has given him the role of spiritual leader and the one responsible for final decision making in the marriage.  She is not less spiritual, nor should she be.  She is not excluded from decisions either, her input is vitally important because the two of them become one flesh in God's eyes.  But the husband has the responsibility before God for what they do and how they live as a couple.  It is pretty much common sense, e.g. there is only one president, because if there were two equal presidents, who would cast the tie-breaking vote?  There are never an equal number of judges on a panel or in a court, because then some things could never be decided.

 

There is more to it.  A wife's role is not to chase whatever she wants in the world for herself 'so long as she is back in time for dinner'.  By marrying, her role has changed and she is now responsible to seek the best for her marriage and family above everything else (except serving God, which always comes first).  And the husband now has additional responsibility, to care for and love and protect his wife as if she was his own body.  It is a most wonderful thing, a Christian marriage.

 

To further understand all of this, consider that all three participants in 'the fall' received a 'curse' or 'judgment' from God. The serpent tempted Eve and she ate of the forbidden fruit, and then gave it to Adam too.  You can look up and read the serpents curse if you like.  Eve's curse from Genesis 3:

 

16 To the woman he said,
“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.â€
 
Adam was also cursed, because he chose to eat the fruit with Eve:
 
17 To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.â€

 

The curse on the ground was mitigated after the Flood, but that's another topic.  And while I already know that some of you disagree, these events are not myths or parables, they did happen.  Not because I say so, but because that is how the Bible is written, including listing Adam as the first man in the genealogies.  If someone wants to respectfully discuss this further from a Christian standpoint, feel free to start a thread in the religion forum, or PM me (please be patient with me for a response).

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The Bible was written two thousand years ago where it was a very different world and women's rights were virtually non-existent.  Therefore, it is important to read this text within it's appropriate context: a place distant in time and location where the construct of society was totally different from the modern day.  The Bible contains texts that condone genocide, infanticide and slavery and, thankfully, these topics have been reviewed in the context that whilst such things may have been acceptable two millennia ago, they are clearly not appropriate in the modern day.  

 

It's high time that the misogyny apparent in such passages as â€œA woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.†(1 Timothy 2:11-14), was addressed and evaluated in a modern context.  After decades of female emancipation the world is a very different place and women have the right to have their voices heard.  Frankly, it is offensive to suggest that the thoughts and opinions of women are not as valid or valuable as those from someone who happens to have inherited a Y-chromosome.

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The Bible was written two thousand years ago where it was a very different world and women's rights were virtually non-existent.  Therefore, it is important to read this text within it's appropriate context: a place distant in time and location where the construct of society was totally different from the modern day.  The Bible contains texts that condone genocide, infanticide and slavery and, thankfully, these topics have been reviewed in the context that whilst such things may have been acceptable two millennia ago, they are clearly not appropriate in the modern day.  

 

It's high time that the misogyny apparent in such passages as â€œA woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.†(1 Timothy 2:11-14), was addressed and evaluated in a modern context.  After decades of female emancipation the world is a very different place and women have the right to have their voices heard.  Frankly, it is offensive to suggest that the thoughts and opinions of women are not as valid or valuable as those from someone who happens to have inherited a Y-chromosome.

 

Hey 29K,

 

There is a context to that verse in 1 Timothy.  This is in the context of a spiritual meeting, like in a church.  In a church, men are supposed to be subject to the authority of whoever is preaching.  In line with my post above, if a married woman is subject to her husband as the spiritual head of the home, it is out of the order of things for her to jump up and start communicating for the two of them in a spiritual matter, thus assuming his role.  She is part of her husband, and so it is disrespectful to him.  What she has to say is not blocked, but in this specific place and role, she should show her husband the respect by asking him first, and then letting him ask on their behalf as a couple.  The Bible is full of order and respect, very different from the world today.

 

So, it would be incorrect to assume that this scripture is saying women cannot speak in public, or teach in schools or cannot have opinions.

 

I won't get into detail, but the Bible doesn't generally 'condone' any of the things you listed.  You can't just write off the Bible because of some of the details in the stories presented.  And there are some actions or near-actions that occurred because they were symbolic, and need to be understood in context.  Some of the things may be difficult to understand, and some of them may not be what people want to hear.  But that doesn't make them wrong.

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It's high time that the misogyny apparent in such passages as â€œA woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.†(1 Timothy 2:11-14), was addressed and evaluated in a modern context.  

 

I'm actually glad to see someone bring that scripture up. The message contained in scripture isn't always intended to make us feel good or tell us what we want to hear, and it's definitely not intended to be politically correct. This is what the Bible says. Like it, or don't. Agree with it, or don't, but don't ignore it or pretend it's not there.

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I stand by my statement. We are not equal. If we were all body parts would be the same and God wouldn't have made it perfectly clear of our duties as men and women. Yes we can do some of the same things but that doesn't make us equal at all. There is MALE and FEMALE. You all believe what you want I stand by my statement, what I've studied, and what I've been taught. I will not comment any further. :)

 

I think some are construing what you're saying about not being equal as not having the same intrinsic value. We're all equal in terms of our intrinsic value as human beings. We're not all equal in terms of having the same functions. Just like Paul described how as believers, we're part of the body of Christ, but one part of the body can't say to another other part that it has no need of it (that one is more important than the other).

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But those passages of Scripture are, in fact, a subversion of  the Greco Roman household codes in effect at the time. The maintaining of total authority in the home was critical to the functioning of a society that relied on the total authority of the government and/or religion. At the time of these writings on marriage, the Greco-Roman Household Codes were part of Pax Romana, the laws keeping the peace of Roman.  Peter and Paul worked within imperfect systems because any outright challenge to the law of the land would bring persecution down upon the Church in great number. In fact, the Apostles â€œadvocated this system, not because God had revealed it as the divine will for Christian homes, but because it was the only stable and respectable system anyone knew about†at the time, according to Carol A. Newsom and Sharon H. Ringe of the Women’s Bible Commentary.

 

Paul and Peter used the codes, not because they were perspective or ideal, but because they were familiar and they were showing the church how to move within the world while not being of the world. In fact, incredibly, they placed demands on the assumed power of men by teaching them to be kind to their slaves, to be gentle with their children, to love their wives; they addressed the powerless within a patriarchal society.

 

Read more here.

 

I also highly recommending all of Jesus Feminist by Sarah Bessey.

 

This is a great website, and this particular page explains better interpretations of the problematic passages in the Bible, from a Greek and Hebrew scholar and medical missionary.

 

And for more details on the Greek mistranslated in 1 Timothy 2:11-14.

 

My Christianity is NOT "watered down," for the record. Choosing to actually study the original Greek and the historical context of the Bible is indicative of an active and engaged faith, instead of blindly following whatever people tell me.

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My kinda thing would be each person gives their 100% to the marriage. All the major decisions- house buying, interior designing, finances etc will have to be joint decisions. The whole problem with the whole dominant and submissive thing is, if one person feels like he/she is not being heard or that he/she is lesser than the other, he/she will most likely subconsciously built up resentment. It'll come out in other ways- passive aggressiveness and is overall not healthy at all. I know I wouldn't like that very much (being submissive). I wouldn't go out of my way to pick fights, but I will speak up whenever I feel the need to. Likewise, I'd expect the same from my husband and if he is not speaking up enough, I'd start to worry.  

 

Speaking your mind at all times (as bluntly or politely as you can) speaks volumes about how much you care about the relationship. Division of decisions is fine but one person making majority of the decisions and one person making next to none is not just unfair, its extremely inefficient. One person will appear to be relaxed on the outside but building up resentment inside and the other will just be frustrated and stressed out all the time even if they don't admit it. 

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