shaneb

A third way for Christians on the 'gay issue'?

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I can predict already those who will like this article and those who will hate it but I still think it's a good idea for us to think about how Christians can disagree in healthy ways.  Although this article is about a Christian response to gay people I think it could apply to many different issues.

 

http://jonathanmerritt.religionnews.com/2014/08/11/third-way-christians-gay-issues/

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I think people who know the Bible already know which stance they should take. Churches are becoming increasingly irrelevant for those who wish to obey God's word due to their politicization and rebellion. I don't see that trend changing anytime soon.

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Except, that there are Christians (both heterosexual and homosexual) who believe that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as a sin.  

 

But, I don't agree with debating Bible scripture.

 

And, I do respect anyone's right to their beliefs. :)

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I think people who know the Bible already know which stance they should take. Churches are becoming increasingly irrelevant for those who wish to obey God's word due to their politicization and rebellion. I don't see that trend changing anytime soon.

This.

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I'm going to be open about it: the vagina is made for the penis, as the penis is made to enter the vagina.

 

Our biological nature consists of reproducing by having sex, and this is only possible between men and women. 

 

An anus is made for the excretion of the body, so that we can defecate our wastes. It is not meant to be penetrated as the rectum is designed to get waste out, and not other things in.

 

 

I don't have to answer this, as our biological already answers this question.

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Our mouths didn't evolve to be put on genitals, breasts didn't evolve in order to be erotic objects, hands didn't evolve in order to be inserted into a vagina. It could be argued that the penis and the vagina are pretty ill-suited for each other, and that the vagina isn't really well designed for sex in general -- men tend to get pleasure from more friction, while friction can cause the woman substantial pain, and even physical harm. Couples often have to resort to artificially adding lube in order to circumvent this. And if women's vaginas had truly evolved in order to be perfectly suited for the penis, then the clitoris would be INSIDE the vagina, rather than so far away from it that women often experience no physical pleasure from intercourse at all (a majority of women are unable to orgasm from penetration alone).

 

Heck, even taking the sex out of it -- vaginas didn't evolve to have little pieces of cotton shoved up them, but I still do that every menstrual cycle. My hands didn't evolve in order to type on this keyboard, but I do that anyway. Ovaries weren't 'meant' to be artificially shut down via pills until it is convenient to use them again. Wisdom teeth weren't 'meant' to be extracted before they even come in. Eyes aren't 'designed' to have little slips of plastic put in them to help you see better. We do things that our bodies didn't evolve 'for' every single day (and even the idea of anything evolving 'for' a specific purpose is a bit intellectually shoddy, because it implies that evolution has some kind of will). I don't know why people all of a sudden get on their moral high horse (as if evolution also dictated a specific moral use for anything at all) about LGBT people not using their body for its 'evolved' purpose when pretty much every person on the planet does exactly the same thing, just in different ways.

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You may use your body parts however you want but you can't change the biological nature of humans. The man is made for the woman and the woman is made for the man = fact.

 

 

 

I'm not gonna argue how to use your hands or eyes, cause I really wasn't talking about sexual organs, right?

 

 

This society always put pressure on me, do this, do that, if you don't believe this then youre that, if you dont accept that then you are this. Society always tried to find a name to define me, muslim, barbar, Turk, orc, or whatever-o-phobe I am.

 

 

No force, no power, no man, no human will ever be able to define me. It's not about what's right or feels right.

It's something that'll never change; the truth. And I don't need people's belief, affiliation, preference, when I know what the truth is. 

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I'm going to be open about it: the vagina is made for the penis, as the penis is made to enter the vagina.

 

Our biological nature consists of reproducing by having sex, and this is only possible between men and women. 

 

An anus is made for the excretion of the body, so that we can defecate our wastes. It is not meant to be penetrated as the rectum is designed to get waste out, and not other things in.

 

 

I don't have to answer this, as our biological already answers this question.

preach!

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My stance on homosexuality is simple. Matthew 7:1 'Just not, lest ye be judged'. I don't have to judge what people do. God does that. God has shown me how (by His son), and given me the job of loving them, accepting them, and showing tolerance for those things I do not understand. I am not perfect and, although I try to live my life the best way I can and how my heart tells me is the way, I know that I am not perfect. If I were perfect, and had no problems living a sinless life, why would God have needed to give me the power of prayer?

 

Anyway...

Whether I think being 'gay' is ok (I hate that term anyway, why can't we say 'homosexual'? If you use 'gay' in it's original meaning people look at you.. well, as if you just told them you're a virgin! lol), or not, is between me, God, and/or whoever might want to discuss it with me, and be open minded, because they want to know how I feel or are trying to figure something out and they want my outlook.

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About tolerance... God does not teach tolerance and acceptance of sin. God teaches love; despite the sinful natures of all people including those partaking in the sin of homosexuality God wants us to love them. If you really loved someone, you would want to tell them when you know they are going down the wrong path. You don't sit and watch someone you love drink their life away or go so hard into drugs it's killing them without trying to help them, so for homosexuality it should be the same.

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About tolerance... God does not teach tolerance and acceptance of sin. God teaches love; despite the sinful natures of all people including those partaking in the sin of homosexuality God wants us to love them. If you really loved someone, you would want to tell them when you know they are going down the wrong path. You don't sit and watch someone you love drink their life away or go so hard into drugs it's killing them without trying to help them, so for homosexuality it should be the same.

This.

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LGBT people are generally acutely aware from childhood on that a good chunk of the population thinks they're hell-bound...I don't really see why people feel the need to continue reiterating it. And one can hardly compare a healthy, loving same-sex relationship with doing something dangerous and destructive like heroin, or going through a gallon of wine a day. (And if I had a gay or bi friend who was in a dysfunctional same-sex relationship, I'd be no more or less concerned for them than I would be for a straight or bi friend who was in a dysfunctional opposite-sex relationship.) If a man going down on his wife is all well and good, I fail to see how a woman going down on her wife is any different. If a woman promising to love, honor, and cherish a man till death do they part is something wonderful and honorable, then I fail to see how a man promising to love, honor, and cherish a man for the rest of their days is somehow morally degenerate.

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About tolerance... God does not teach tolerance and acceptance of sin. God teaches love; despite the sinful natures of all people including those partaking in the sin of homosexuality God wants us to love them. If you really loved someone, you would want to tell them when you know they are going down the wrong path. You don't sit and watch someone you love drink their life away or go so hard into drugs it's killing them without trying to help them, so for homosexuality it should be the same.

 

Of course, just because I don't accept homosexuality does not mean I don't accept gays. Several of my good friends are lesbians & gays. Even one of the best friends of my sister is a gay.

Isn't it hypocrisy to have friends who drink alcohol and who don't wait till marriage but hate gays or lesbians just because they do something they believe is right?

 

Many times, Arabs insulted my gay classmate while we were walking at the street during schoolbreak. I went into a fight with them, strangely, they were scared, must be because of my Rambo-like hair and my height whahaha :D

 

 

I won't ever support or accept gay marriage. But I will support their action on doing it, because these are things I'll always honour.

 

We are descendants of Turkmen revolutionaries, against the empire. We fought together with the Greeks and Armenians against the evil authorities who commited ruthless murderings and slaughters, close to the events of the first world war.

We also fought against the invading Greeks, British, Russians, Americans, British, French and Italians for our independence.

Yes, our family always fought for justice and honour.

 

And to accept gays, is justice.

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No person is perfect, and not everyone is going to change simply because you talk to them and tell them they should... in fact most won't. If we all turned everyone away who was doing something wrong in their life, or something we don't agree with... well, we'd all be pretty lonely, because no one is exempt from imperfection.

 

That pretty much sums up what the rest of my thoughts are, but I'm going to leave it (below) in case anyone is interested. :)

 

Some of the Bible is blatantly black and white, some is less clear than that (as we see from so many differing opinions) as to what some things from it mean. For me to be at ease with who I am and my personal relationship with God is more important to me than worrying about whether the rest of the world agrees with me. I respect anyones views (and welcome them), whether I agree with them or not. Simply because I can't know your relationship with God, and your state of Christianity, anymore than you can know mine. I just don't understand how you can practice love without tolerance, because you have to tolerate something in order to be around it to be able to show love. Jesus did that. As an example.... he tolerated being around Mary Magdalene in order to show her love. He accepted her past, in order to be an example to her in her life, which is the way we are suppose to lead... by example. To pressure someone into any discussion is more likely to push them away from you, and close their hearts and ears to your words. If you choose your moment well, or allow them time to talk about it, then (odds are) they will be willing to hear you and consider your thoughts. They will either change, or, more often than not, move on in their lives.

 

This is really for any subject which we might have a problem with in life.

 

Besides, what it really boils down to is what I have said in other posts... you have to be true to yourself. No matter what you live, if you are not happy YOU are the only person who can make the choice to change.

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If I wasn't clear enough before I believe the philosophy of "love the sinner hate the sin" I hate whatever God hates and I'm not singling anyone out, just sticking to the topic which is this particular sin. :)

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Threads about same-sex relationships here seem to always degenerate into what feels like arguing.  Is there any way to avoid this?  I felt like the article I posted offered some good points about respect across the divide. 

 

If you are someone who believes that same-sex relationships are sinful, what is the best way that I, as someone who is in a same-sex relationship, can show love to you in a discussion about them?  I struggle with that at times because I know that most straight people who condemn my relationship, are people who haven't really thought through things.  Or they say things about gay people that just aren't true.  Or they say things that are truely hurtful and I want to hurt them back. 

 

How can we elevate this conversation into one that brings life and encouragement to people?

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I wonder about this, too. Honestly, I think we have a problem for (at least) two reasons:

 

1. People seem to think that homosexual relationship = sex. I see a lot of that here, with people reducing an entire relationship to just having sex, which is ironic considering that being WTM site, everyone knows that there's more to love than just sex. But there are some people who talk as if all gay people do is have sex with each other, and thereby write off an entire relationship as sinful. There's a lot of good things in a same-sex relationship, too. Love isn't a sin. It'd be like trying to say that premarital sex is wrong, and arguing it as if people who have sex outside of marriage don't really love each other, or have a relationship entirely based on sex.

 

2. Following on the first point, I think that even when there are those who do realise that two men or two woman can love each other and that's not an issue, they think that there's those who don't like to admit that, as if doing so would be somehow compromising their beliefs. Sometimes, I read posts where it seems like the author's thought, "I must get my point across in the strongest possible words, otherwise someone (either other commenters or God) will think I don't really mean it."

 

And, dare I say it, but for all this talk about loving the sinner and hating the sin, the tone of some of these comments don't suggest it. Some of them, I read and think that they say they respect those who are gay, but they don't truly believe it. It's as if they think of gay people as being some "other" group of people, so they don't feel the need to moderate any of their comments. Granted, not everyone here does this, but I think there are some who do.

 

To be perfectly honest, I think I've done that in the past, too, at least to some extent. I hope I've always been respectful with my posts, but I can't honestly say that I've succeeded. My heart hasn't always been in the right place, and although I hope it's getting better over time, my pride is something I struggle with, on this and on other issues.

 

So that being said, I want to take a moment to apologise, sincerely, for any hurt I might have caused with any of my previous posts on this site. Shane, I think you're the person I've butted heads with most often, so I want to say to you in particular that I'm sorry. You're my brother in Christ, and although we haven't always seen eye-to-eye on everything, I hope we can be friends. And I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me, for any pain I might have caused you.

 

With regards to the two points I made, there are two Catholic films that I think address the issues pretty well, and would be particularly helpful for Christians to watch. 

 

One in particular, I think goes right to the heart of the issue of the difference between sex and love, and so on. That one is called, "Desire of the Everlasting Hills," and is a documentary about three people with homosexuality, who are all trying to live a good Christian life. What I like about it is, besides being beautifully directed, you have all three of them at one point or another being in a loving relationship, which dispels the myth that two people of the same sex can't love each other.

One of the people, Paul, is still in a loving relationship with the man he loves, just living chastely.

 

http://everlastinghills.org/movie/

 

The other one, I thought of immediately when I first saw the thread title, because it's actually called "The Third Way." I saw this before "Desire of the Everlasting Hills," and I think it's also very good. This one has a lot more in the way of explaining Church teaching, etc. but still has a lot of people giving their personal testimonies, too. But I don't think it's quite as good as "Desire of the Everlasting Hills."

 

http://www.blackstonefilms.org/films.html

 

Like I said, if you're a Christian with strong views on the subject, then I highly recommend these films, the first in particular. Take an hour out of your day to watch it sometime.

 

xxx

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Jegsy, I certainly hold different beliefs than you do about many topics, but you are one of my favorite community members here. I've never seen you be anything other than level-headed and respectful, you clearly work hard to understand the other side's point of view, and you never forget the essential humanity in those you disagree with. In short, you are awesome, and people like you restore my 'faith' (haha) in Christian people. ^^

 

If my words have been too harsh, I apologize. I almost posted about this when it happened, but I held back.... I have had many gay, lesbian, pagan, and Wiccan friends and family who have been physically harmed by Christians, for no other reason than harmlessly existing in the way that is most natural to them. The most recent incident was not very long ago at all, and it left me feeling quite shaken, hurt, and angry. I don't feel I can give many details, but suffice it to say it was in no way a fair or provoked fight. It was a hate crime, pure and simple. I would probably not have commented on this topic at all if I were not still feelings so much hurt and confusion from that.

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Jegsy,  that was a wonderful post!  Thank you so much for writing it.  I know that we have butted heads in the past and I hope that my comments to you were not hurtful.  i know that you are a woman who is deeply committed to your faith and to be honest I have noticed a difference in your tone since we started interacting.  Thank you for your grace!

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I watched "Desire of the Everlasting Hills." I feel that it was really more about people coming back to faith rather than about people figuring out their sexuality.  Of course, since they all came back to traditional Catholic faith, coming back to faith meant giving up their sexual relationships.   I have seen other movies that have a similar sequence of stories but the individuals that are being interviewed don't give up their intimate relationships. 

 

I would strongly recommend "For the Bible Tells Me So", "Seventh Gay Adventist" and "Through my Eyes"    They all have a similar style to "Desire of the Everlasting Hills" but deal with gay Christians who find ways to integrate their faith and sexuality.  (Unfortunately I couldn't find any free legitimate links to these documentaries. You may find some pirate links but I'm not going to post those here!)

 

I am very happy that these three individuals have reconnected with God.  I believe that is much more important than finding a romantic relationship.  However, I don't believe that connecting with God requires that gay people be celibate and from my own life and from my many gay Christian friends I know that it is possible to have a deep relationship with God while at the same time to be in a same-sex relationship.

 

Thanks for sharing the film, Jegsy.  It was wonderfully shot and I enjoyed seeing how these people found peace with God. 

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So that being said, I want to take a moment to apologise, sincerely, for any hurt I might have caused with any of my previous posts on this site. Shane, I think you're the person I've butted heads with most often, so I want to say to you in particular that I'm sorry. You're my brother in Christ, and although we haven't always seen eye-to-eye on everything, I hope we can be friends. And I hope that you can find it in your heart to forgive me, for any pain I might have caused you.

 

 

Jegsy, I certainly hold different beliefs than you do about many topics, but you are one of my favorite community members here. I've never seen you be anything other than level-headed and respectful, you clearly work hard to understand the other side's point of view, and you never forget the essential humanity in those you disagree with. In short, you are awesome, and people like you restore my 'faith' (haha) in Christian people. ^^

 

If my words have been too harsh, I apologize. I almost posted about this when it happened, but I held back.... I have had many gay, lesbian, pagan, and Wiccan friends and family who have been physically harmed by Christians, for no other reason than harmlessly existing in the way that is most natural to them. The most recent incident was not very long ago at all, and it left me feeling quite shaken, hurt, and angry. I don't feel I can give many details, but suffice it to say it was in no way a fair or provoked fight. It was a hate crime, pure and simple. I would probably not have commented on this topic at all if I were not still feelings so much hurt and confusion from that.

 

Jegsy,  that was a wonderful post!  Thank you so much for writing it.  I know that we have butted heads in the past and I hope that my comments to you were not hurtful.  i know that you are a woman who is deeply committed to your faith and to be honest I have noticed a difference in your tone since we started interacting.  Thank you for your grace!

 

NO!!! Stop getting along with each other! There is a dangerous amount of respect going on around here. How am I supposed to have a job if everyone is civil all the sudden? I need to do something before I fade away from relevance.

 

I got it! I'll start trolling myself. That will get people riled up.

 

*Enters trolling mode* ALL OF YOU ARE DUMB DUMB HEADS AND YOU'RE ALL WRONG!!! HAHAHAHA!!! :P

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I really love this blog post about homosexuality and Christianity. I look forward to the rest of the series.

 

A few thought-provoking passages:

 

“Neither Peter in his work to include Gentiles in the church nor the abolitionists in their campaign against slavery argued that their experience should take precedence over Scripture,†writes Matthew. “But they both made the case that their experience should cause Christians to reconsider long-held interpretations of Scripture. Today, we are just as responsible for testing our beliefs in light of their outcomes—a duty in line with Jesus’s teachings about trees and their fruit.â€

 

 

Before getting into a more detailed analysis of the various biblical passages involved, Matthew takes Chapter 2 to argue that new information about sexuality ought to compel Christians to rethink their interpretation of Scripture. He reminds readers that Galileo was accused of heresy by the Church when he presented evidence that contradicted centuries of tradition and accepted biblical interpretation regarding the earth’s place in the universe. It would take Christians many years to change their minds, but eventually they did. 

 

“Christians did not change their minds about the solar system because they lost respect for their Christian forbearers or for the authority of Scripture,†he writes. “They changed their minds because they were confronted with evidence their predecessors had never considered. The traditional interpretation of Psalm 93:1, Joshua 10:12-14, and other passages made sense when it was first formulated. But the invention of the telescope offered a new lens to use in interpreting those verses, opening the door to a more accurate interpretation.â€

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Except, that there are Christians (both heterosexual and homosexual) who believe that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality as a sin.

But, I don't agree with debating Bible scripture.

And, I do respect anyone's right to their beliefs. :)

Count me in. I'm one of those christians

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