shaneb

Another interesting article

60 posts in this topic

If premarital sex is a sin, then why not state that and leave it at that? The article is another look on this topic of premarital sex.  What is the big deal here?  This could have been constructive and positive.

Even as a Christian, I am sorry for all the shaming of others and the extreme dogma of religion culture.  A Christian can't help anyone if they do not possess empathy for others.  The reasons why people make the choices they do is very complex.  Why not share Jesus here and how Jesus can HELP people who are not waiting.  Not shame them for sinning.  If you were in THEIR shoes, would shaming  and defensiveness be effective?  If you were already not waiting, then it would just push you away even further.  

'It is good to wait', not 'it is right to wait'.


"Love your neighbor as yourself."

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If premarital sex is a sin, then why not state that and leave it at that? The article is another look on this topic of premarital sex.  What is the big deal here?  This could have been constructive and positive.

Even as a Christian, I am sorry for all the shaming of others and the extreme dogma of religion culture.  A Christian can't help anyone if they do not possess empathy for others.  The reasons why people make the choices they do is very complex.  Why not share Jesus here and how Jesus can HELP people who are not waiting.  Not shame them for sinning.  If you were in THEIR shoes, would shaming  and defensiveness be effective?  If you were already not waiting, then it would just push you away even further.  

'It is good to wait', not 'it is right to wait'.

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

The way I see it is people are having a dialogue. And both sides are arguing their point. So it's not like either side is "leaving anything at that." Both sides in this thread have felt compelled to make their point otherwise it would have ended many posts back.

 

And I actually found this thread to be constructive and positive because it gives me an opportunity to see both sides instead of just one.

 

I can understand you're tired of all the shaming of others, and I think shaming is dead wrong. But I haven't seen anything on this thread to demonstrate shaming of others. I seriously haven't. To argue whether something is a sin or not in the Christian religion is not equivalent to shaming others.

 

Edit: I'm also glad nobody here is "sharing Jesus"... because that would be proselytizing and in that case I would lose all interest and wouldn't follow this thread. What's being discussed, here, is far more interesting to me.

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I can understand you're tired of all the shaming of others, and I think shaming is dead wrong. But I haven't seen anything on this thread to demonstrate shaming of others. I seriously haven't. To argue whether something is a sin or not in the Christian religion is not equivalent to shaming others.

 

IMHO, when you cast aspersions on someone's stated beliefs and accuse them of spreading "heretical" beliefs, yeah, you're shaming them for interpreting an ancient document that exists in fragments and has thousands of translations worldwide differently than you do.

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IMHO, when you cast aspersions on someone's stated beliefs and accuse them of spreading "heretical" beliefs, yeah, you're shaming them for interpreting an ancient document that exists in fragments and has thousands of translations worldwide differently than you do.

 

 

When someone says "Your beliefs are wrong" this doesn't, in my opinion, fall under the umbrella of:

 

Aspersion:

 

a damaging or derogatory remark or criticism; slandercasting aspersions on a campaign rival.
2.
the act of slandering; vilification; defamation; calumniation; derogation: Such vehement aspersionscannot be ignored.

 

If what you're saying is true, then that's like me saying "Christianity isn't true" and then someone telling me I'm casting an aspersion. Well, actually, I don't believe Christianity is true. Am I shaming someone with my belief? And is a Christian who believes another Christian is wrong in their interpretation shaming that Christian? That just doesn't add up to me.

 

And is an atheist shaming me when they tell me I'm wrong to believe the universe has a Creator? No, of course not. "Aspersion" is a pretty potent word, and I don't agree that anyone casted aspersions by telling another Christian that their interpretation isn't aligned with what they believe the Bible actually says.

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I'd also add... if someone wants to argue that we don't have the original Bible, and what we really have are translations after translations after translations of the original, and what the implication of this is, I would love hearing that argument. Because for one thing it's absolutely true that the original Bible is long gone, and what we have today is the result of many translations from when the original one was composed. And, as far as I understand, different parts of the Bible were written at different times, and it's kinda complex. Something I need to read up on.

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Excuse me, but how exactly am I generalizing? And I'm not defending pre-marital sex, but im not condemning it either!

You're previous statements have not seemed like you believed in the philosophy of 'hate the sin, not the sinner' at all. Also, the Bible teaches us not to judge. I will not participate in another's sins, but I will not judge them. The Almighty is the only judge. Not I, nor you, have the right to judge another.

 

I respectfully disagree.  You make judgments every day in everything you do, as do we all.

 

You look at a tray of strawberries and see the mushy ones at the bottom, and you decide not to buy them, because you judged them to be a bad choice.  When choosing a route for a walk, you avoid certain areas, maybe a dark alley or two or under a bridge.  Because you judged them as bad or risky places.

 

But you suggest that to protect our most precious possession, our eternal soul, we cannot judge those around us who could jeopardize that?  Is there anyone you would judge as unacceptable to be your companion, to influence your decisions in life because the wrong decisions could cause you a lifetime of pain and regret?

 

I did a search and found this essay on judging, it is a really clear explanation of those verses.  For those who don't read it all, I will share one quote.  I've avoided responding with scripture references up to now, but the Bible says it in a few words so much better than I do:

 

There is a place for righteous judgment. When Christians persist in sin, they are to be judged by their fellow Christians, as Paul explained to the Corinthians: "I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore 'put away from yourselves that wicked person'" (1 Corinthians 5:9-13).

 

http://www.oldpaths.com/archive/davison/roy/allen/1940/judge.html

 

 

Also, you have referred to the Bible being clear on many matters before. With all do respect, how can you possibly claim this? The Bible is over 3000 years old. It has been manipulated, translated, rewritten, questioned, etc... And not to mention the fact that there are about 1,000 different current versions of a christian Bible, and everyone reads a different one depending on what sect they are. So how can you be so sure of what the Bible is clear on when the original one practically doesn't even exist anymore?!

 

Please don't exaggerate.  There are around 100 English translations, but not 1,000. And many are from different periods of time, but most differ only in interpretation, often in slightly different phrases, words or idioms of the time of the translation.  And most other languages have at least one translation, many several.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations

http://tyndalearchive.com/scriptures/index.htm

 

There are a few modern translations and a few breakaway group translations that intentionally change interpretations to support 'modern' Christian philosophies or to support what a certain group wants their followers to believe, but these are easily avoided.

 

The argument that the Bible is so old, or in so many different 'versions' that we can never know anything for sure is another great excuse used by Christians and non-believers alike, and it has shown up more than once on these forums.  But it is also completely mistaken (and I'm not being arrogant, just brutally honest).

 

The Bible is the most carefully, meticulously, prodigiously curated book in history, with no other document coming close.  The Jewish scholars preserved the Old Testament through thousands of handwritten copies over time.  I'm not an expert on this, so I'll give you a link.  http://carm.org/old-testament-corrupted

 

The New Testament reportedly has some 24,000 manuscripts!  http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html

For a secular link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_manuscript

 

At first glance, one would think that means there is tremendous uncertainty in the content of the Bible.  Actually, in all of these manuscripts, Old Testament or New Testament, most of the differences are things like differences in spelling, grammar or word order.  None of them casts doubt on the content or accuracy of the Bible.  Rather than try to explain something so carefully explained elsewhere, I suggest this short article.

http://www.bible.ca/b-many-versions.htm

 

However, for the quick reader, I will include one paragraph from the above to explain (bold added).

 

"In a conversation with a man at Walmart, a statement was made as well as a question asked: "The Bible was taken from hand written copies, much of which are only fragments. How can we trust that what we have is accurate?"

 
Because there are over 14,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament we can absolutely be confident of its accuracy. With this large number of manuscripts, comparing manuscripts easily reveals any place where a scribe has made an error or where there is a variation. There are approximately 150,000 variations in the manuscripts we have today. However, these variations represent only 10,000 places in the New Testament (if the same word was misspelled in 3,000 manuscripts, that is counted as 3,000 variations.) Of these 10,000 places, all but 400 are questions of spelling in accord with accepted usage, grammatical construction, or order of words. Of the remaining variations, only 50 are of significance (such as two manuscripts leaving out Acts 2:37). But of these 50, not one alters even one article of faith which cannot be abundantly sustained by other undoubted passages."

 

For a Christian though, all of this amazing confirmation of the Bible and its content and its meaning is actually secondary.  When you read the Bible and develop a personal, spiritual relationship with Christ, you no longer need the factual proofs to believe, you develop a spiritual faith.  Many Christians have had that experience at least somewhere in their lives, the hard part is keeping that relationship over time.  Once married, one has to keep the love alive and fresh with a spouse and not let anyone lure you away into breaking your marriage.  Similarly, we have to keep our love and relationship alive with Christ, or we may lose our spiritual union and become empty and hypocritical Christians-in-name-only.

 

We can probably conclude this thread.  If you don't want to hear or believe any of this, that is your prerogative.  But consider before you post broken, misleading and indefensible philosophies as truth and fact.

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If premarital sex is a sin, then why not state that and leave it at that? The article is another look on this topic of premarital sex.  What is the big deal here?  This could have been constructive and positive.

Even as a Christian, I am sorry for all the shaming of others and the extreme dogma of religion culture.  A Christian can't help anyone if they do not possess empathy for others.  The reasons why people make the choices they do is very complex.  Why not share Jesus here and how Jesus can HELP people who are not waiting.  Not shame them for sinning.  If you were in THEIR shoes, would shaming  and defensiveness be effective?  If you were already not waiting, then it would just push you away even further.  

'It is good to wait', not 'it is right to wait'.

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

 

With all due respect, Stacie, in my experience the ones who are truly interested in Christianity want to hear it pretty straight.  

 

As for shame, there are several kinds, the unhealthy kind stemming from physical or emotional challenges (e.g. having a deformity, a stammer or something like a big facial birthmark), and the kind that comes from behaving badly. The latter is a natural human emotion intended to help guide us back to the right path.  I can look back to things I said or did e.g. as a child and still feel the shame and know that I should never say or do them again.  Shame is not all bad.

 

From a Christian perspective, it is not just good to wait, but it is right to wait, and it is because other posts have claimed a Christian viewpoint that I answered this thread at all.  I don't shame people by sharing, in love and compassion, what the Bible teaches.  People shame themselves by their own behavior.  You seem to think of me as a great big meanie.  I may not communicate my empathy well in the written word, but I'm one of the first to forgive. Without forgiveness, I would not be here.

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When someone says "Your beliefs are wrong" this doesn't, in my opinion, fall under the umbrella of:

 

Aspersion:

 

a damaging or derogatory remark or criticism; slandercasting aspersions on a campaign rival.
2.
the act of slandering; vilification; defamation; calumniation; derogation: Such vehement aspersionscannot be ignored.

 

You misunderstood. Someone casting aspersions that I'm not a Christian.

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There are passages in the Bible that reconfirm why I love Jesus so much. But that does not mean that I have to believe absolutely every word of the Bible...

You said before that modern Christians pick and chose from the Bible what verses they are going to follow... this to me is extremely insulting.

With these two completely contradictory sentences in the same post, you've made it clear that trying to discuss this with you is a waste of time. Your wild claims that the Bible was lost and rewritten are baseless.

For the record, I never said the Bible was secondary to my relationship with Christ; the Bible is Christ. You say you love Jesus, but He said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." Loving without obeying is just humanism, not Christianity, and won't get you anywhere with God. That's what I've been trying to say and I'll let that be my summation.

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All I have to say from what little I've read is that the bottom line is everyone EVERYONE judges. I hate that crap of "don't judge"...everyone has judgements it's just not supposed to be cast in a hateful manner but it's still there.

My 2 cents

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