shaneb

Another interesting article

60 posts in this topic

Again, he wasn't banned for using the word "crazy." He was warned. He was banned for his reply that was rude, mocking, and completely dismissive. You'll notice that none of the other members of WTM who commented on her blog post have been banned.

 

No, but other people on that article have been banned. Why does it matter if it's every person, or if they're from WTM?

 

I noticed she didn't address about 85% of the points I made to her. It just looks bad on her part. She's the one with a reputation to uphold, not me.

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No, but other people on that article have been banned. Why does it matter if it's every person, or if they're from WTM?

 

Because you claimed that she's incapable of engaging in respectful dialogue or listening to different opinions. I offered up the members of WTM as an example of people who disagreed with Dianna in a respectful way, and thus they were not banned.

 

Yes, I criticized your comments on Dianna's site, because you misrepresented your actions and her own. Dianna is someone I have "known" for several years now (the way I have "known" people on WTM for several months now), and you questioned her character. If you consider that personal, then so be it.

 

I noticed she didn't address about 85% of the points I made to her. It just looks bad on her part. She's the one with a reputation to uphold, not me.

 

She told you she's written a book that addresses much of your questions. Furthermore, the answers to your questions could be found on her blog, if you wanted to look for them. Dianna is very generous with her time in engaging commentators who respectfully disagree, but she isn't obliged to spend her entire day doing so. Choosing not to continue replying to someone uninterested in real discussion doesn't make her look bad--it makes her look discerning in how she spends her time.

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She told you she's written a book that addresses much of your questions. Furthermore, the answers to your questions could be found on her blog, if you wanted to look for them. Dianna is very generous with her time in engaging commentators who respectfully disagree, but she isn't obliged to spend her entire day doing so. Choosing not to continue replying to someone uninterested in real discussion doesn't make her look bad--it makes her look discerning in how she spends her time.

 

Whether or not there are "answers" to my questions somewhere on her blog doesn't change the fact that her article was FULL of misconceptions about waiting, virginity, and purity movements. In fact, I don't see how she could have somewhere dispelled all of these misconceptions without better articulating herself in the present article.

 

Uninterested in real discussion? Okay.

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Again, he wasn't banned for using the word "crazy." He was warned. He was banned for his reply that was rude, mocking, and completely dismissive. You'll notice that none of the other members of WTM who commented on her blog post have been banned.

 

Yeah, I noticed that, but I still think coming that close to banning someone for what was a fairly innocent mistake is over-the-top, since there is no mention of such a policy within her own commenting guide. I do think his subsequent post went too far, but I don't think she came off great in her replies to Crowing and a few others either ('pay money for my book that comes out in a few months to find my answer to your points' is pretty dismissive).

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I called it. I SO called it that this article was going to generate a lot of heated discussion. I was just anxiously anticipating the great Belle Femme to jump in on an article from a liberal feminist. That's a shocker :P

 

*sigh, this is what happens what put a liberal feminist and a conservative Catholic in the same room. I admire both of your guys' passion, but can't we all just hug each other and skip around in a land full of rainbows and unicorns? lol.

 

Both of your presence here has got the wheels in my head turning that maybe we need a sub forum specifically for contentious issues. Or maybe that might be a recipe for disaster. But just a thought :)

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I don't see it that way at all, Invincible..  Different types of people CAN be amicable and respectful.  Passion should never negate respect for others and their point of views.  To bash another's views (that hurts you in no way) to prove yours is superior is out of line, not passionate. 
 

ShaneB, thank you for sharing the article.  I agree that looking from different angles of a certain topic is constructive and a well-rounded approach. 
 

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I don't see it that way at all, Invincible..  Different types of people CAN be amicable and respectful.  Passion should never negate respect for others and their point of views.  To bash another's views (that hurts you in no way) to prove yours is superior is out of line, not passionate. 

 

It was a joke :P

 

Just look at me and PaulJustPaul. We both couldn't be anymore different and I love that guy :D

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I agree that certain individuals have taken things too far. 

 

My forum etiquette rule is "state how you feel and move on".  Don't set yourself on "repeat".  Don't nitpick details unless they are really important and still in line with the original post.  
 

Everyone knows something. Nobody knows everything.

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The site's author, as well as her associate Belle Femme both claim Christianity, and both have written a book about feminism and sexuality in that context. I would likely not be commenting if it wasn't something done in the name of God. They clearly think that they have greater knowledge and reasoning than the One who wrote the Book of all Books in the first place, because they have tried to add to and to change it. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

A safe place for people who are trying to do well to get better, to be right is a good idea. But a safe place where people are shielded from the truth and taught alternate realities concocted by angry feminists isn't safe at all - it will turn out people with warped ideas.

The article in question states what this misguided young woman believes about abstinence and purity being unnecessary, but doesn't provide real reasons or reasoning why. What can she expect but for people to question her strange, heretical beliefs?

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To bash another's views (that hurts you in no way) to prove yours is superior is out of line, not passionate.  

 

Totally agree with this, which is exactly why I felt the need to post over there to begin with. Maybe fighting fire with fire wasn't the right thing to do in this case, but I felt compelled to make a stand, and I still maintain that I was no less respectful toward her (Dianna) than she was toward me. She attacked my lifestyle, so I let her know about it. She then quickly dismissed my arguments and threatened to ban me for saying some harmless word, which is showing about as little respect as you can show someone, so I gave her none in return, and she banned me from her site. End of story.

I sincerely hope people will get the whole story before just automatically deciding that I'm the bad guy, which BF obviously feels that I am, because of course, she's friends with that author.

 

Don't worry, I'm still leaving the site for the time being. I just wanted to clear some things up.

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5. Why not at least start kids down the right path (and yes, it is the right path) by introducing them to the idea of abstinence?

It is not the 'right path.' It is the right path for you, for me, and for countless others. But it is the wrong path for many. In fact, there are many cultures that encourage premarital sex, under the beleif that only through sex can you know if you have met your life partner. There are other cultures still who not only encourage premarital sex, but so wish for their daughters to have more than one partner that it is age old tradition for the family to build the daughter her own home that is used strictly for sex.

So though it is the right decision for us on this site, it is not 'the right decision' overall.

 

I just wonder why I have not heard of these 'many cultures that encourage premarital sex'?  But many is a strong term.  I wonder what the facts really are, and why we don't hear about these people all the time if these are such exemplary cultures?

 

And then you appear to claim that there exists more than one culture that builds not only the isolated 'love hut' but an actual home for their daughters to use strictly for sex? (Either of which smacks to me of just another ruse for multiple boys/men to get sex from a young girl/woman before she can figure out what happened.)   And if you use these as examples, they must be good cultures to preserve and study, so I would have to assume that you would agree with most or perhaps all of the other cultural traditions these people have, especially with regard to men and women?  

 

As feminists, you don't think that perhaps there could be even just a little oppression of women in cultures that condone premarital sex?  In Africa, many Zulus hold the tradition that a young woman needs to be proven fertile before marriage, by having one or several children, in part fueled by the cultural tradition that men 'buy' their wives from the woman's father for a fairly hefty fee.  Why doesn't it surprise me that many never actually do get married.

 

And this region/culture has the highest HIV/AIDS rate in the world.  At least 30% and probably closer to 50% of pregnant Zulu women are HIV positive, due to their promiscuity, and many of the children contract HIV from their mother, or are left as orphans when they die, and often both.  This statistic comes from the blood tests all pregnant women have when they go to a maternity clinic and is probably one of the most reliable statistics on HIV in Africa.  (And though it is not directly related to this discussion, don't believe it when people tell you that it is almost impossible to contract HIV from heterosexual sex.  According to the various world health sites, 80% of all HIV infections worldwide are in fact from heterosexual contact.)

 

Finally, by claiming that the practices of religions and cultures other than your own 'right' for some people, you are essentially giving these other religions and their gods equal value to your own religion and beliefs.  From a Christian perspective, you should take a deep breath before you charge ahead and make that claim, because it isn't supported by the Bible at all (quite the opposite in fact), regardless of how 'politically correct' it may sound these days.  As a Christian, I believe that abstinence before marriage is always the right path.  I believe that abstinence is never the wrong path, for anyone, Christian or not.  Because suggesting otherwise would be denying Christ and the Bible.

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I agree with ChristianMan, and I'll add that it would be the same as saying "Well, I'd never steal a handbag from Macy's, but if you want to, that's fine because it's totally your choice!". Rules are rules and when they are broken, there is a price you will have to pay, regardless of whether or not you believe you are doing anything wrong or if the activity in question is actually illegal in the eyes of the government. God's laws are absolute and following His higher law is more important than whether or not we think it is "the right decision overall".  

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I maintain respect until someone makes it personal, then all bets are off.

We need to keep in mind that WTM.org is a safe, encouraging and respectful place for waiters. Please help us to keep it that way. Feel free to PM members. Thank you.

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I don't see it that way at all, Invincible..  Different types of people CAN be amicable and respectful.  Passion should never negate respect for others and their point of views.  To bash another's views (that hurts you in no way) to prove yours is superior is out of line, not passionate. 

 

ShaneB, thank you for sharing the article.  I agree that looking from different angles of a certain topic is constructive and a well-rounded approach.

I agree Stacie. Thank you for reminding everyone of this!

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I'm not one for arguments but just need to say something.  I think people here are confusing religion and culture.

From a simple look from google, 

 

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

 

Culture is the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. 

 

So I don't understand this whole if you like what other cultures 'other than your own' you are giving other gods an equal value to your God.  Cultures have nothing to do it.  By that reasoning us christians who follow the Australian culture and Asian cultures and any other must be wrong because off course there's only one culture is right for God and I'm assuming it's yours right?

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I do actually agree with what you say about religion but going around degrading other people's cultures other than yours is demeaning,it's rude and it's offensive. There's a reason why people follow their beliefs and practices for years and years and clearly it's been working for them but that doesn't mean it's right for me or you and neither is yours the absolute right for everyone.

 

About the cultures you were asking that build love huts it's practiced in Asia in Cambodia mainly. They build love huts for their children when they reach 13 and no, from as far I've read and watched about them it's usually with their peers not older men. So it's nothing to with the Zulus or Africa they have their own practices which anyone can learn from a quick research on the internet .  What else, the bride price usually serves as an insurance in case the groom dies the bride and kids can have something to live on so it's not like they buying the bride. There's a reason behind every thing so it's not right to take things at it's face value you and just run with it without doing some research first.

 

And as I have said I agree with what you've said, for any religion you choose to follow you just can't pick and choose what to believe but you have to remember that even in the Bible (for us christians) those people followed their own traditions and cultures. Be it the Jews or Egyptians or other tribes they all had their own practices the only common thing they did was worship the same God for some.i'm not sure about that part but I do know they had different practices. 

We are all different different religions, different cultures, and all we can do is respect each other but that doesn't mean you think less of your God and looking down on others doesn't show how you love God more or are more christian than others.

 

Again I'm so sorry for the rant, but I feel people seem to forget that this is a public forum with people all over the world and there's a fine line between a respectful debate and just spewing off hurtful inconsiderate things just to show your superiority or win an argument. It's not right. And If I perceived it wrong and you meant differently again I'm sorry.

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We need to keep in mind that WTM.org is a safe, encouraging and respectful place for waiters. Please help us to keep it that way. Feel free to PM members. Thank you.

 

That's fine, continue to single me out, I can handle it. It's as if every rebuttal to my argument(s) has been done with tons of respect. Ya'll can't be serious.

 

If you guys REALLY think I disrespected Dianna or BF before they each disrespected me then I have no idea what to tell you. Now is it necessarily right to disrespect someone because they disrespected you? No, but if you're going to give lectures on respect, there's several people that need to hear it. I still don't know if I'd even call what I said to Dianna "disrespect" to begin with. And as far as what I said to BF, I don't really think it was worse than what she first spouted off towards me.

 

I don't know how I can tell you that what I said was a reaction from people making things personal with me and yet you end up only telling me to behave. 

 

None of this is anything but perception. You simply cannot get a true read on someone based on what they say online, so if ya'll want to think I'm a cocky, arrogant, disrespecting jerk based on me sticking up for my beliefs and simply responding to disrespect towards me, then fine.

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Again I'm so sorry for the rant, but I feel people seem to forget that this is a public forum with people all over the world and there's a fine line between a respectful debate and just spewing off hurtful inconsiderate things just to show your superiority or win an argument. It's not right. And If I perceived it wrong and you meant differently again I'm sorry.

 

I think it's important not to confuse challenging someone's viewpoints with spewing off hurtful or inconsiderate things.

 

Because honestly, I've read this thread and I really can't find anything that was done in a mean spirited or hurtful way. 

 

If someone can point out where I'm wrong, then please do. 

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I'm not one for arguments but just need to say something.  I think people here are confusing religion and culture.

From a simple look from google, 

 

Religion is the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.[/size]

 

Culture is t[/size]he ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society. [/size]

 [/size]

So I don't understand this whole if you like what other cultures 'other than your own' you are giving other gods an [/size]equal value to your God.  Cultures have nothing to do it.  By that reasoning us christians who follow the Australian culture and Asian cultures and any other must be wrong because off course there's only one culture is right for God and I'm assuming it's yours right?

 

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I do actually agree with what you say about religion but going around degrading other people's cultures other than yours is demeaning,it's rude and it's offensive. There's a reason why people follow their beliefs and practices for years and years and clearly it's been working for them but that doesn't mean it's right for me or you and neither is yours the absolute right for everyone.

 

About the cultures you were asking that build love huts it's practiced in Asia in Cambodia mainly. They build love huts for their children when they reach 13 and no, from as far I've read and watched about them it's usually with their peers not older men. So it's nothing to with the Zulus or Africa they have their own practices which anyone can learn from a quick research on the internet .  What else, the bride price usually serves as an insurance in case the groom dies the bride and kids can have something to live on so it's not like they buying the bride. There's a reason behind every thing so it's not right to take things at it's face value you and just run with it without doing some research first.

 

And as I have said I agree with what you've said, for any religion you choose to follow you just can't pick and choose what to believe but you have to remember that even in the Bible (for us christians) those people followed their own traditions and cultures. Be it the Jews or Egyptians or other tribes they all had their own practices the only common thing they did was worship the same God for some.i'm not sure about that part but I do know they had different practices. 

We are all different different religions, different cultures, and all we can do is respect each other but that doesn't mean you think less of your God and looking down on others doesn't show how you love God more or are more christian than others.

 

Again I'm so sorry for the rant, but I feel people seem to forget that this is a public forum with people all over the world and there's a fine line between a respectful debate and just spewing off hurtful inconsiderate things just to show your superiority or win an argument. It's not right. And If I perceived it wrong and you meant differently again I'm sorry.

I appreciate your taking a logical approach to this. The post I was replying to equated culture and religion by essentially claiming that a cultural practice of promoting premarital sex was morally right for the people living in those cultures. For something to be morally right, there has to be a set of beliefs that set up those morals, hence it has to be something sanctioned or at least not prohibited by their religion.

it In the Bible and sometimes in Christianity, cultural practices are referred to as traditions. But it is always made very clear that culture/traditions should not contradict Christianity. And I don't have anything against different cultures and practices as long as they don't go counter to what we should believe and obey as Christians. There are things we can learn from other cultures, I have experience with a number of different cultures in several countries firsthand.

I did read about the love huts, I know what is reported. But I don't believe that it is primarily a positive, happy system, because that is not human nature. I quote from another thread on another blog... "In principle I don’t have a problem with something like this. In practice, knowing what I know about Ratanakiri and having in-laws from there, I have a HUGE problem with it. It is common practice there to use these huts to trade sex with one’s daughter for money or other goods. The statement in the video about low rape rates is absolute BS." This is all secondhand info of course, so arguing it further is probably pointless, but assuming that it works exactly as described by NatGeo or others interested in selling this as a novel story would be naive.

I brought up the Zulus and Africa, not because I confused them with Cambodia, but because their culture is an example of one where premarital sex is culturally commonplace and in some ways condoned, and because it is one that I have encountered firsthand. HIV is relevant because it is spread through these cultures, not only in Africa, but also quite badly in Cambodia as well.

I'm afraid you are mistaken about the bride price or Lobola among the Zulus at least. The wife does not keep the money, nor is it saved by the father in case his daughter becomes a widow. Read the following link for more on this practice in Africa and around the world. In other, ancient cultures, the bride price was in some cases a widow-insurance-plan.

http://seabastian.hubpages.com/hub/LoveForSale

I should be upset with you accusing me of just grabbing something at face value and not researching it, but I don't think you meant to insult. I have gone out of my way not to insult, nor have I "spewed off hurtful inconsiderate things". I respect that there are other people here with other beliefs and other cultures. But some things are universal, and we cannot redefine the major tenets of Christianity based on our own local culture or traditions, or even by our own experiences. I'm just trying to explain what I understand and believe from a Christian perspective.

I realize that some see my boldness and confidence about what I believe as arrogant, but I'm not. I'm a fair, humble guy who will read and fairly consider what is posted, so long as it is truthful.

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Many believe making a woman wait to have sex until she has vowed to spend her life with a man is extremely oppressive.

Many? I believe a man should also be required to wait to have sex until he has vowed to spend his life with said woman. But I don't see that as oppressive. It is challenging, trying, and sometimes frustrating but so are many human endeavors, like e.g. training as a professional athlete.

5. Love others as He has loved you. ALL humans were created in the eyes of the Almighty. Do not judge lest you be judged. Let he without sin, cast the first stone.

I couldn't have put them better myself - all the knee-jerk phrases that are regularly used by Christians to excuse any kind of bad behavior.

Too bad that more Christians don't read the rest of the verses and chapters that these teachings and quotes are cut out of - they mean so much more in their true context, and are not the excuses for sin that so many would like to think.

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Right now, I feel like she's saying "premarital sex is not a sin and you should think so too." The problem with this is that debates between "becoming one" with many people versus one person is right or wrong can go on until both sides pass out, regardless of who's right or wrong. It's a conflict that she can't resolve at this time.

 

She does not address this and instead decides to minimize the the opposition, saying:

  • [Abstinence] becomes something that places them closer to God, that positions them as holier and better than other people. It is the marker of a Good Christian Person. This is the problem.
  • Being abstinent is simply one state of being.
  • You have not won any battle by making it to your wedding day as a virgin – you have merely managed to keep a somewhat arbitrary promise.
  • You have not lost anything if you decide to have sex without a ring on your finger.
  • Notice I said nothing about it being “the right choice†universally – because it’s not.

Her supposed target audience believes that premarital sex is a sin, and the statements above are almost guaranteed to put them on the defensive. It directly opposes what they believe, attacking what they consider precious and important and what God desires. It also comes off as intolerant of other religions that believe in abstinence.

 

What I did like was how she stressed the importance of making an informed decision. To really weigh the decision of being abstinent. However, I was hoping she'd present at least a few questions for people to think long and hard why abstinence is considered important in their religion by making them examine and tie it to their core beliefs.

 

I think she needs to step back and rather than opposing the Purity Culture as a whole and respect (agreeing is optional) the values they wish to instill (I'm assuming is sexual purity through abstinence). I'm sure in essence, it will not a bad thing. In fact, usually it's good. The bad thing is where people decide to create an "us vs. them" atmosphere and make the opposition the "bad guy" on top of making all sorts of rituals and watchwords.

 

... Ironically, it's very close to the atmosphere she's making in this article.

 

A step to gaining the ears and attention of those involved in Purity Culture is to concede that people are allowed to believe premarital sex is a sin and respect that they have different values than hers. When she internalizes this and learns to be more respectful to even those who oppress others, I believe her blog will truly be a safe place to go to for people who are looking for it.

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Yes, many. I did not say that you find it oppressive. I said that others do, and that is true. 

 

They are not knee-jerk, they are what I believe with all my heart. I love everyone simply because they are humans. I truly believe that that is what Jesus wants. "Love others as I have loved you." This does not mean "Love others who believe in me and condemn all others."

 

Too bad more Christians don't follow these examples of how to love and treat others. I truly believe that Jesus wants us to love absolutely everyone, no matter what. Just as much as we believe in Jesus, Muslims believe in Allah. They think they are just as right as we think we are. Do you wish to be condemned for not worshipping Allah, for eating Pork?  And please do not respond to this question that they are not following Jesus, that they are not living a Christian life. What really is a Christian life? To live a Christian life, one must love others and treat others with kindness, with generosity. I believe that even people who do not identify as Christians can live a Christian life. 

 

The fact of the matter is, we all believe in something different. But by believing in Jesus, we believe that ALL humans are made by the Almighty, and therefore we should love them. We do not have to agree with their actions, but we should not condemn them either. We can hate the sin, but we cannot, should not, hate the sinner. Jesus dined with sinners, He befriended Mary Magdalene, He forgave those who crucified Him.

 

You may not feel like you are condemning other people, other religions, other cultures, but that is how it comes across at times. You stated in an earlier post, "And I don't have anything against different cultures and practices as long as they don't go counter to what we should believe and obey as Christians." I feel as if this is saying that you only approve of other Christian societies, and to some, this can come across as arrogant.

You are generalizing here, and twisting my words but really not addressing your apparent defense of premarital sex.

As you said, love the sinner (Christian or not), and hate the sin - I agree completely and that's how I live. But the Bible teaches us not to encourage the sinner in a lifestyle outside of Christ. Because that makes us complicit in their sin. That's a bit different from just loving and supporting everyone regardless.

Don't think I'm going to take the bait and bring other religions into this, then we'd have a melee. :)

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