Cora Jay

Saving your first kiss too?

67 posts in this topic

18 hours ago, redgrapes said:

I believe intentionally saving your first kiss for the one you marry is a lovely gesture. Though admittedly, I am surprised at how many in this thread have yet to receive their first kiss because my first kisses (yes, plural) were all completely unexpected and too quick for me to stop, starting in early elementary school and continuing on from there (sometimes even from girls). Eventually I kissed of my own free will but I didn't feel like it was my first kiss anymore. Whether or not someone is saving their first kiss does not necessarily demonstrate having more or less conviction, self control, or a higher standard- there are various reasons why anyone could be on either side. Some may not have a "first kiss" to give because it was taken while others may not have kissed because they had no real opportunities or relationships.

Hmmm, my issue with your argument is that you can argue the same thing with virginity and sex. It's not as big of an issue (kissing) but they can be seen as very similar to some people. since they are both intimate activities. I view someone who had saved their virginity as someone who does have higher standards and the same would go for their first kiss. Not to the same degree but it does say a lot about them if they have been able to be in those situation and still not kiss someone. 

I admit, I am two ways about saving my first kiss. 

On one hand - if my boyfriend has never kissed, I would feel more open about kissing them but I have no issues of holding off either . If they have kissed someone  I would feel much more reluctant to kiss them and make them wait much longer to ensure that they aren't rushing into the psychical side of things. I've talked to guys online and the ones who always say they would love to meet me and kiss me are the ones who have gotten sexual/had sex/things like that. That's why it's more of a weeding out thing to test control and resilience. It's not a deal breaker but I would respect a man who has never kissed a girl much more than someone who has. And my ability to respect a man is a deciding factor in whether I would date them or not. Hence why I would never date a non-virgin because their decision to sleep with someone who is not their spouse is not something I can respect in my husband. 

I think as people get older, if they have never been in a relationship like myself - there is much more weighting added to a giving away their first kiss and it becomes more and more precious; kinda like wine and you would only want to give your first kiss to someone who deserves it which for a lot of people would be only their spouse as time goes on. I think also if I found out that a person had lost their first kiss in a way that you did, I would feel someway about it, despite it not being their fault because it shows that something I'm holding precious to me is not the same for you. I'm sure you remember the person who you first kissed and they always say that you'll remember the person who you did first kiss (unless that's not the case for you).  It small but it's still a part of yourself that you've given to another person. That bothers some people in this thread - myself included. 

However if we go back to virginity, sex and consent, I believe that things like rape do not count for loss of virginity - it requires consent. Therefore if we go by that you will always have a first kiss to give away and when you do - that is your decision alone. This is mainly due to the fact that I do not like the idea of my first kiss being taken from me but if I did not consent to it then it will never be taken away unless I permit it.

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4 hours ago, BlackRose said:

Hmmm, my issue with your argument is that you can argue the same thing with virginity and sex. It's not a big or an issue but they can be seen as very similar to some people. I view someone who had saved their virginity as someone who does have higher standards and the same would go for their first kiss. Not to the same degree but it does say a lot about them if they have been able to be in those situation and still not kiss someone. 

I admit, I am two ways about saving my first kiss. 

On one hand - if my boyfriend has never kissed, I would feel more open about kissing them but I have no issues of holding off either . If they have kissed someone  I would feel much more reluctant to kiss them and make them wait much longer to ensure that they aren't rushing into the psychical side of things. I've talked to guys online and the ones who always say they would love to meet me and kiss me are the ones who have gotten sexual/had sex/things like that. That's why it's more of a weeding out thing to test control and resilience. It's not a deal breaker but I would respect a man who has never kissed a girl much more than someone who has. And my ability to respect a man is a deciding factor in whether I would date them or not. Hence why I would never date a non-virgin because their decision to sleep with someone who is not their spouse is not something I can respect in my husband. 

I think as people get older, if they have never been in a relationship like myself - there is much more weighting added to a giving away their first kiss and it becomes more and more precious; kinda like wine and you would only want to give your first kiss to someone who deserves it which for a lot of people would be only their spouse as time goes on. I think also if I found out that a person had lost their first kiss in a way that you did, I would feel someway about it, despite it not being their fault because it shows that something I'm holding precious to me is not the same for you. I'm sure you remember the person who you first kissed and they always say that you'll remember the person who you did first kiss (unless that's not the case for you).  It small but it's still a part of yourself that you've given to another person. That bothers some people in this thread - myself included. 

However if we go back to virginity, sex and consent, I believe that things like rape do not count for loss of virginity - it requires consent. Therefore if we go by that you will always have a first kiss to give away and when you do - that is your decision alone. This is mainly due to the fact that I do not like the idea of my first kiss being taken from me but if I did not consent to it then it will never be taken away unless I permit it.

While I think saving one's virginity and one's first kiss are two very different things, I agree there is somewhat of a correlation between saving one's first kiss and qualities such as self control, conviction, and having a high standard, but it isn't strong enough in isolation to draw conclusions from by any means. Some people who were never kissed during adolescence due to lack of opportunity reasons, such as fear of intimacy or not sharing a mutual attraction (nothing wrong with either of those by the way), may decide in adulthood, perhaps even as a coping mechanism, that they're actually "saving their first kiss" when they wouldn't have if a true opportunity had arisen earlier in life. This observation is not true for everyone of course, and doesn't take away from the fact they are intentionally saving it now.

Apparently you are open to kissing before marriage if your hypothetical boyfriend had not kissed before, even though you (and your hypothetical boyfriend) could potentially wind up in the exact same situation as those whom you seemingly look down upon for having kissed before if your relationship ended premature of marriage. :huh: I would also eliminate a man I barely knew if he mentioned kissing, not because they had kissed before but because they were impolite and misunderstand my intentions. I would not respect a man any more or less based on whether or not they have kissed before alone, as they are equals; inexperience does not make a superior human being.

It's wonderful you get to choose who you share your first kiss with. Not everyone gets to make that decision. I know your future husband, should you get married, will appreciate it whether he has kissed before or not- any first kiss can still be special and meaningful to someone because it is with the person they love more than anyone else. No, I don't remember who my first kiss was because it happened in kindergarten or first grade without my consent. I guess it was either the boy I drew a beard on in the yearbook or the annoying kid on my school bus- I don't remember which. Neither of them have a piece of me just like the first person I hugged doesn't either. The only memorable first kiss and the only one I truly wanted at the time was with the person I dated for eight years. There is simply no comparison between that and the other "first kisses" because, unlike those, it was intentional, mutual and authentic in the moment it occurred.

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8 minutes ago, redgrapes said:

While I think saving one's virginity and one's first kiss are two very different things, I agree there is somewhat of a correlation between saving one's first kiss and qualities such as self control, conviction, and having a high standard, but it isn't strong enough in isolation to draw conclusions from by any means. Some people who were never kissed during adolescence due to lack of opportunity reasons, such as fear of intimacy or not sharing a mutual attraction (nothing wrong with either of those by the way), may decide in adulthood, perhaps even as a coping mechanism, that they're actually "saving their first kiss" when they wouldn't have if a true opportunity had arisen earlier in life. This observation is not true for everyone of course, and doesn't take away from the fact they are intentionally saving it now.

Apparently you are open to kissing before marriage if your hypothetical boyfriend had not kissed before, even though you (and your hypothetical boyfriend) could potentially wind up in the exact same situation as those whom you seemingly look down upon for having kissed before if your relationship ended premature of marriage. :huh: I would also eliminate a man I barely knew if he mentioned kissing, not because they had kissed before but because they were impolite and misunderstand my intentions. I would not respect a man any more or less based on whether or not they have kissed before alone, as they are equals; inexperience does not make a superior human being.

It's wonderful you get to choose who you share your first kiss with. Not everyone gets to make that decision. I know your future husband, should you get married, will appreciate it whether he has kissed before or not- any first kiss can still be special and meaningful to someone because it is with the person they love more than anyone else. No, I don't remember who my first kiss was because it happened in kindergarten or first grade without my consent. I guess it was either the boy I drew a beard on in the yearbook or the annoying kid on my school bus- I don't remember which. Neither of them have a piece of me just like the first person I hugged doesn't either. The only memorable first kiss and the only one I truly wanted at the time was with the person I dated for eight years. There is simply no comparison between that and the other "first kisses" because, unlike those, it was intentional, mutual and authentic in the moment it occurred.

I think for me claiming they are now "saving their first kiss" doesn't work. To me they have lost it and that's that. It's kind of like the reclaimed virginity thing - I wouldn't date someone like that since it's an immediate turn-off. I recognise that they are different and I understand that not everyone has the opportunity I have had. Since I have never dated/been in a relationship, it's never been an issue. It's not that I would expect the guy that I could potentially date to have no ex's but the fewer past relationships they have had, the better.  

Thing is regardless of who I date, I wouldn't kiss someone until we were engaged. Also although I am more open to kissing them, it does not mean I would and honestly, it's very unlikely that I would kiss until my wedding date as the years go by. I would be more open to kissing someone when we are engaged if they hadn't kissed before. Otherwise, I would like them to wait if they had kissed before. I recognise that it is contradictory but I feel that I would be able to open up to someone who hasn't kissed more emotionally. I guess for me it's more of a timing thing to clear things up. However I would expect them to also save it for the wedding day so it wouldn't be an issue and the situation that I am describing won't come up as all :P 

For me it depends on what type of kissing - pecks are fine, french kissing/making out is not. For me that is foreplay and someone that would make me cautious in dating that person. So refraining from kissing them enables me to test their true intentions and willingness to wait it out until I am ready. It is not a dealbreaker as is with virginity but I would certainly take things slower and be more on edge with someone who has kissed others. 

I always have an issue when people say that my husband would appreciate things like first kisses. I can only see value in giving it to someone who hasn't kissed anyone before either. Otherwise, I kinda feel like I'm getting the shorter end of the stick tbh and that makes me very reluctant and honestly fearful to get into a relationship with anyone since I feel like I would be giving something more precious that they would ever be able to give me. I'd just be another girl they've kissed whereas they would be my first. The value isn't the same both ways and that for me is a problem. For me it's not about the inexperience but the value that is held to it. I don't see inexperience as superior but it does hold higher value in these aspects. 

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17 hours ago, BlackRose said:

I think for me claiming they are now "saving their first kiss" doesn't work. To me they have lost it and that's that. It's kind of like the reclaimed virginity thing - I wouldn't date someone like that since it's an immediate turn-off. I recognise that they are different and I understand that not everyone has the opportunity I have had. Since I have never dated/been in a relationship, it's never been an issue. It's not that I would expect the guy that I could potentially date to have no ex's but the fewer past relationships they have had, the better.  

Thing is regardless of who I date, I wouldn't kiss someone until we were engaged. Also although I am more open to kissing them, it does not mean I would and honestly, it's very unlikely that I would kiss until my wedding date as the years go by. I would be more open to kissing someone when we are engaged if they hadn't kissed before. Otherwise, I would like them to wait if they had kissed before. I recognise that it is contradictory but I feel that I would be able to open up to someone who hasn't kissed more emotionally. I guess for me it's more of a timing thing to clear things up. However I would expect them to also save it for the wedding day so it wouldn't be an issue and the situation that I am describing won't come up as all :P 

For me it depends on what type of kissing - pecks are fine, french kissing/making out is not. For me that is foreplay and someone that would make me cautious in dating that person. So refraining from kissing them enables me to test their true intentions and willingness to wait it out until I am ready. It is not a dealbreaker as is with virginity but I would certainly take things slower and be more on edge with someone who has kissed others. 

I always have an issue when people say that my husband would appreciate things like first kisses. I can only see value in giving it to someone who hasn't kissed anyone before either. Otherwise, I kinda feel like I'm getting the shorter end of the stick tbh and that makes me very reluctant and honestly fearful to get into a relationship with anyone since I feel like I would be giving something more precious that they would ever be able to give me. I'd just be another girl they've kissed whereas they would be my first. The value isn't the same both ways and that for me is a problem. For me it's not about the inexperience but the value that is held to it. I don't see inexperience as superior but it does hold higher value in these aspects. 

I just want to quickly clarify a few points: When I said they are "saving their first kiss," I was referring to people who had not kissed before but only made the decision to save their first kiss for their wedding day in adulthood. Also, I naturally assumed you were talking about kissing someone you were hypothetically dating since you used the word "boyfriend" instead of "fiance" or "husband." Lastly, I'm confused as to why you're discussing forms of kissing you are comfortable with and which constitute foreplay after I thought you just said you were saving your first kiss for the wedding day- wouldn't all types of kissing be acceptable in marriage?

What if the person you were dating or engaged to was kissed without his consent by another woman before you shared your first kiss with him?

I cannot agree that inexperience holds a higher value in itself, but I can understand that exclusivity might. The value, for me at least, is in expressing my feelings through physical intimacy with the person I cherish. The value of a kiss comes from the emotional connection that is shared, not that two people are physically, outwardly exchanging their first kiss. If you get to have both- great! Though every kiss after the first can be just as significant because of the bond between two individuals. It's not like all subsequent kisses have inherent diminishing value... While I firmly believe it's ideal for everyone to only have one spouse whom is the only person they ever kiss starting on their wedding day, and for everyone to be on equal footing with their spouse regarding sexual history, both mentally and physically, I recognize the world isn't a neat and tidy place, nor is it "fair," and not everything is within our control. Upbringings and backgrounds are different, and some choices are made for us. I also don't think kissing has much association with more relevant aspects of a relationship such as the capacity to be a great spouse or parent, and I think those are infinitely more important than any first kiss.

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7 hours ago, redgrapes said:

I just want to quickly clarify a few points: When I said they are "saving their first kiss," I was referring to people who had not kissed before but only made the decision to save their first kiss for their wedding day in adulthood. Also, I naturally assumed you were talking about kissing someone you were hypothetically dating since you used the word "boyfriend" instead of "fiance" or "husband." Lastly, I'm confused as to why you're discussing forms of kissing you are comfortable with and which constitute foreplay after I thought you just said you were saving your first kiss for the wedding day- wouldn't all types of kissing be acceptable in marriage?

What if the person you were dating or engaged to was kissed without his consent by another woman before you shared your first kiss with him?

I cannot agree that inexperience holds a higher value in itself, but I can understand that exclusivity might. The value, for me at least, is in expressing my feelings through physical intimacy with the person I cherish. The value of a kiss comes from the emotional connection that is shared, not that two people are physically, outwardly exchanging their first kiss. If you get to have both- great! Though every kiss after the first can be just as significant because of the bond between two individuals. It's not like all subsequent kisses have inherent diminishing value... While I firmly believe it's ideal for everyone to only have one spouse whom is the only person they ever kiss starting on their wedding day, and for everyone to be on equal footing with their spouse regarding sexual history, both mentally and physically, I recognize the world isn't a neat and tidy place, nor is it "fair," and not everything is within our control. Upbringings and backgrounds are different, and some choices are made for us. I also don't think kissing has much association with more relevant aspects of a relationship such as the capacity to be a great spouse or parent, and I think those are infinitely more important than any first kiss.

Okay to clarify - I am okay with all types of kissing in marriage. What I would have issues with is if my boyfriend/fiance had made out with another person because I see making out as foreplay. I am fine if they have pecked someone I guess but would still me kinda miffed that I'm not their first. Same with the whole "stolen kiss thing". If they see it as their first kiss then I still feel kinda cheated honestly. The only solace I have is that it wasn't consensual. I'd get over it eventually though but it would take time for me because I feel angry towards this other woman who stole it from him. That's why I know that I couldn't even try dating a non-virgin since this is already an issue for me. Same if they have had more than a couple of past relationships - that's extra baggage that I don't need in my life. 

I think that is the issue for me - the lack of exclusivity which angers me to a point. I realise that the world is not fair and some things are chosen for people but they have also made decisions and I have made mine. I have to disagree though honestly after you've kissed someone for the first time, I do feel like they diminish in value. The more people you kiss, the less valuable it becomes. There are more important things that I am looking for in a future spouse and it's not a deal breaker. I think it just makes me sad and angry that what I would give them (via a first kiss) is much more valuable than what they could ever give me at this point in time. If I do end up getting into more than one relationship (which is probably unlikely at this point just due to the lack of options around me) then my views may change due to my exposure. But for now I kinda see it as I would be giving them 100% and I'd only get 90%.  They would have to prove that they can give me a lot more in other areas before I could probably trust them and date them and so on and so forth. If I'm doing so much to protect myself, giving it to someone who hasn't done the same just seems like a waste of time. 

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@BlackRose I can certainly understand why you would have strong feelings about the topic. For me mental purity is more important than physical purity, but also more subtle and not as categorical as physical acts (and therefore not as communicable). There is an overlap between the two but it was quite surprising to find out how many people, even waiting until marriage, compensate for a lack of physical intimacy with other outlets and don't see anything wrong with it (especially if they are religious or were raised religious). Now that makes me uncomfortable. And it's even more prevalent than the physical issues we're discussing here, and affects my sense of exclusivity significantly more than kissing does, which is also why I don't want to make comparisons between what I've physically done and what someone else has physically done- that's just the tip of the iceberg and the total can never be fully known or weighed in the balance. So I can relate but more along the lines of desiring the more obscure, intangible forms of exclusivity: mental and emotional.

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@redgrapes I guess that makes sense. For me, you can't control what people think so as much as I would want to, that is out of my jurisdiction. A guy can look at another woman and think she is attractive through no fault of his own.  However, with the physical stuff,  since I'm just comparing it to what I have done (or not done rather) that's where I have issues since people have much more control over that sort of thing. So I guess for me I do have a way in which to weigh them out when it comes to physical stuff. However there will be exceptions to the rule but since I have never met an exceptions to the rule, I have no idea how to deal with that. 

2 hours ago, redgrapes said:

There is an overlap between the two but it was quite surprising to find out how many people, even waiting until marriage, compensate for a lack of physical intimacy with other outlets and don't see anything wrong with it (especially if they are religious or were raised religious).

I'm not too sure what you mean by this. Could you please elaborate? 

I do agree with the emotional side of things too however since that's also why I have an issue with the number of past relationships a person has had or how deep/long they lasted for. Relationships are more than just physical; they are mental and emotional too. The minute I hear that a guy has had a really bad past relationship or they have had a couple of long-term girlfriends etc I want to run the other mile just due to the emotional and mental ties that they will have to that person/people. It will affect them in future relationships and that's another thing I have issues with. Even if they claim that they don't feel anything to that person anymore, I would always be compared to them in someway. Same with sex, people have ties to past sexual partners.  It's not relatable with regards to kissing but it does dampen it in a way that it's not as exclusive. You do give your heart away in every relationship you enter - there is no countering that. I think that's why I'm holding onto mine so much to avoid the pain that a failed one would bring. 

So it's probably that although there is more to a person than whether they have kissed others, been in other relationships (long or short term) or have had sex; the lack of exclusivity is the real problem due to the mental, physical and emotional ties people make when in relationships. Since I haven't been in any relationships, my views are much more black and white with regards to what I will and will not accept more to protect myself emotionally rather than anything else. 

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@BlackRose Yes, I can elaborate on my ambiguous statement (sorry for not being clear, I was concerned about derailing the thread and offending others :unsure:). I was predominantly referring to people who use pornography as an escape or replacement, and may have never dated or had any sexual experiences with a real person, never kissed, never held hands, etc. This compromises their mental purity and exclusivity, in my opinion, while their physical purity remains intact and can still be claimed as such. Yet wouldn't someone exposed to hours of porn be less "virginal" than someone who just kissed another girl but never saw porn? My preference is for someone more mentally inexperienced.

I think one can become familiar with (not control ;)) what kind of thoughts someone else generally has from just getting to know them on a deep level. Actions originate from thoughts and underlying beliefs anyway. I can see that it would be very challenging for you to find someone compatible without using the physical side as a filter. One factor for me is how soon and how often they talk about sex and the way they handle the subject, either gracefully or offensively, or if it's discussed personally versus impersonally. Since you are interested in being friends with them first, you'll have ample time and opportunity to know their true character.

When you said "it will affect them in future relationships," that could very well be true, but it can happen in a good way. It's possible to come out of a relationship a better person than you went in, which can actually be a benefit to the next person, not a detriment. However, I understand if exclusivity is a greater priority for you. It's just not as straightforward as always being "baggage" though. That mindset reminds me of a quote by Oscar Wilde: "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." And about comparisons, they can happen between anyone regardless of whether or not they dated- a past partner is not required.

I think you are right to protect yourself emotionally. My last break up was one of the greatest difficulties for me aside from two deaths. Dating at an early age was also harmful to me, but that was about a decade younger than your current age. At a certain point, being guarded can become a hindrance in finding your future spouse, and you cannot safeguard against getting emotionally hurt even if you never physically touch. There's always the risk of breaking up and becoming another person with "baggage." Thomas Kempis said, "Even shouldest thou see thy neighbor sin openly or grievously, yet thou oughtest not to reckon thyself better than he, for thou knowest not how long thou shalt keep thine integrity."

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@redgrapes Ah I see and of course, I understand - don't want to derail the conversation anymore that it has been. I'll just say this quickly with regards to the below. 

10 hours ago, redgrapes said:

Yet wouldn't someone exposed to hours of porn be less "virginal" than someone who just kissed another girl but never saw porn? My preference is for someone more mentally inexperienced.

Agreed, the latter is better but the fact that they have never been in a relationship is attractive to me (as long as it's by choice and not because they're awkward haha). However I think that because porn is so wide (both by scope and definition) for me I would end up asking what types of porn have they watched and things like that since that also plays a factor. Porn is bad but some are significantly worse than others - just like certain sexual acts carry different weights too. But I guess there will always be a tradeoff - mental vs physical. To find a guy who hasn't done either is like gold dust lol

True about thoughts actually. Yeah I think it would be honestly. It been a way for me to filter out people and it's worked out so far so I guess that's why I find it to be the safest thing. Oddly enough though I've been the one to always bring up the sex question first to find out what their view on WTM is and have they struggled with this in the past. So far everyone has been honest to answering since I have built up a friendship first but maybe I've also just been really lucky haha :D 

I guess it's because I've only heard about the negative things that people take out of relationships rather than the good so for me I see past relationships as baggage and quite a negative thing. I'm sure there are positives in some cases but those are much rarer. I guess it also depends how deep they got with that person though If it was short-term it may be easier to handle. I tend to prefer thinking of things as an exact science but I also know that things don't work out in that way. Also since I'm also talking from a POV from I haven't done anything, it easier to have this sort of stance. If/when I do get into a relationship, my views will probably change due to experience...but maybe not that much. 

I think also because apart from my family my relationships with others aren't that deep. I act like I'm open but really I'm quite guarded since trust needs to be earnt - not freely given. I'm also rather skeptical with the whole "It's better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all" - I just don't really see the positives, especially if it works out badly. There is a risk of breaking up and getting baggage yourself which I am very concerned about and could prevent me from dating all together. I'm probably guarding myself more out of fear rather than anything else. What I am open to is someone slowly bringing down the walls I've built around myself which ideally would be  my husband someone who is persistent enough accept that I take time to open up to people. But to link this back to the original topic - that's why I would also save my first kiss too and ideally would prefer to date someone who has done the same :) 

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@Adam No need to apologize to me at least. I didn't feel like you were making excuses. By the way, there is a thread on this topic in the VDA section of the forum. Since you wrote a long post, it will be easier to respond to small quotes. :P 

17 hours ago, Adam said:

People who suggested that it could be wrong were pretty much crucified. Vehemently ridiculed for supposedly imposing on sexual freedom.

This has been my exact experience as a woman openly against porn, which has given me greater trials than waiting (though I see it as a form of true waiting, which honors your future spouse), especially since people defend their bad habits vehemently.

17 hours ago, Adam said:

So something to consider is that sex also exists in just about every entertainment medium outside of porn. It's in TV shows, in movies, in advertisements, in books, in magazines, in video games, etc. You couldn't do anything without encountering it in some way, which is exactly how the business aspect behind sex wants it to be.

Oh, I have considered this. I am about as completely out of the clutches of those as a person can possibly be: don't watch movies or television but academic lectures, read classics and nonfiction materials, not a gamer at all, and I hardly see any ads (no TV, ad blocker on web browser, live in an isolated location, etc). I was not exposed to much while growing up either (ironically my worst exposures were probably in school or university classrooms). I never felt like I was missing out or bored because my best times and memories were simply from spending time with people I enjoyed being around and my dog. I'd regret it if I had wasted much of my youth in front of a screen- so glad I was the active type. My preference is for a man who also doesn't surrender his mind to the mainstream media or mainstream entertainment. That would be exceedingly attractive to me.

17 hours ago, Adam said:

There is also this sense of "political correctness" behind being sexually uninhibited that is undoubtedly having its effect on society. Sex is kind of a joke commodity these days. That especially makes me put more value on physical inexperience.

I think this puts even more value on mental inexperience- it is rarer and a relatively new form of abstention, historically speaking. There is a lot of value in completely avoiding any influence that reinforces sex as a joke.

17 hours ago, Adam said:

Though I think the timing is important to consider. I was introduced to porn at the age of 12. No amount of rational thought and logical reasoning could ever convince a stereotypical 12 year old that there could be ramifications for watching it.

17 hours ago, Adam said:

The point is that I was not intelligent enough to be self-aware and think for myself because I was a child dealing with puberty, and nobody around me ever presented an opposing narrative, which remained to be the case even after I became an adult.

These statements could be said about dating and kissing and such as well, for some upbringings.

17 hours ago, Adam said:

I think it's easier to forgive someone for watching images/videos of sex on a screen (or reading erotica, fantasizing, etc.) versus having consensual physical intimacy with another person, but again, that's just me.

While I disagree depending on the circumstances, I actually find this to be irrelevant. For me, it's not about forgiveness or unforgiveness, but about understanding and feeling understood, and also feeling comfortable and secure in my future marriage- and I am very confident in knowing what that looks like to me.

Anyway, I've already shared a lot of my thoughts on this subject in another thread, so I'm trying to tread lightly here. :unsure:

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@Adam Aw, thank you. ^_^ I don't think you worded your post harshly at all. Honestly, it was one of the few times I think someone has handled the subject gracefully such that I didn't feel uncomfortable about certain aspects or feel judged for feeling the way I do- I think that demonstrates a lot of maturity, humility and awareness on your part. :) I should have said in my previous post that it does not undermine how you have intentionally physically and emotionally preserved yourself for your future wife. Not at all. The fact you have quit is also very significant and (to me) indicates your desire for purity and willingness to do the right thing.

I can relate about the media issue. My family is quite liberal, nonreligious, and just follows along with the unchanging narrative provided by certain news sources. They don't challenge their convictions with alternative points of view but continue on with the same, which I guess I did to an extent before I had adequate time to explore ideas on my own (seems like school keeps you busy so you cannot think, haha). That is when my real education began. Before that, my ignorance came from blindly trusting my parents, believing they had it all figured out and knew what was best for me. My sister and I have turned out very different in our beliefs: she has mostly adopted my parent's while I'm more of a black sheep. Truthfully I even feel like a "WTM misfit" sometimes because of my background, upbringing, and experiences. :superwaiter:

It means a lot to me that you would contemplate further on the mental exposure issue I brought up. I was beginning to feel like my participation on the forum held no meaning, or worse, that it had discouraged others in their waiting. I wouldn't worry too much about the past; you cannot change that, and I believe you are on the right path now. Whether or not you can expect anything, well, I think that's too individual to concern yourself with- everyone is going to have a different opinion on what is acceptable. I have my own past with its own complexities and I know the right person will understand while others may overlook me for it, and that's alright. :) 

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It's really interesting to see such different viewpoints! Thanks @Adam and @redgrapes

I think the value in both mental and physical purity stems from the experiences that different people have as individuals. For people who find it "easy" to create and maintain real-life  relationships and are surrounded by large communities - mental purity will be much more important because that it much rarer for them to find. For those who find it "harder" to maintain real-life relationships - physical purity will be much more important due to that being rarer for them because they tend to ride life in a much more solo fashion rather than in communities. 

For me personally friends have come and gone very quickly since I changed schools a lot as a child. The longest school I stayed in was for 3 years (university). My family have been the only people in my life that have stayed constant so I've seen making friends as something that is very temporary. This has lead me to distance myself from people since there is no point in getting close to people that won't be permanent in your life. The friends that I have now, will they be the same in 5 years? Probably not since that's how things have worked out in the past for me and I assume to be so in the future. We aren't even close with our extended family due to the multitude of issues there. As a result, due to the lack of close in-real life relationships in my life (excluding immediate family), there is a much higher value I place on them.

I know that this is the opposite  with my uni friends - they are involved in churches and were with their classmates since primary school so they are very close to those people. Since they have no shortage of in real-life relationships, they place more value on mental purity than I would. I value and yearn for physical and emotional exclusivity with my spouse due to the lack of it in my own life. The friends I've had in the past often have a further multitude of friends whereas I am very selective and could count the number of people I consider friends on both hands. The lack of exclusivity in friendships makes me desire it in a romantic relationship.

I am speaking from my own experience so this could be entirely wrong but these are the reasons why I did end up going from anime (age 11) to fanfiction (pretty much most of secondary school) to hentai for myself for a bit when I was 18/19. After that, I've been much more guarded in what I allow myself to watch (which has made me cynical to romance stuff but I digress).

In conclusion - those who want to save their first kiss for their spouse place a much higher importance on physical rather than mental purity which is the crux of the matter here. When you experience certain things in friendships and other relationships whether romantic or platonic, you won't search for or desire physical exclusivity as much the point where a potential spouse having kissed someone else bothers you. Whether it be mental or physical purity we desire in our spouse based on our own experiences, neither is wrong or right since everyone has different viewpoints on what is/isn't acceptable and what they can handle in a relationship. But it's been enlightening to see different viewpoints :D 

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On 04/07/2017 at 1:51 AM, Adam said:

Sorry to interject, but the mental inexperience topic is too interesting for me to resist. I'll preface this by saying I have no intention of invalidating your preferences or opinions, I just wanna add in another perspective. Mental experience is not something I've ever really invested much thought into, either for myself or my future spouse. Always felt that just being physically inexperienced was enough. The mentality behind why they are like that is absolutely important, but mentality regarding sex in a more general sense is where it can get a bit complicated.

Since there is inevitably going to be a bit of bias on my part, I'll just admit it right now; I used to watch porn. (Man, that is extremely embarrassing to admit when you have an actual identity tied to your posts as opposed to anonymity.) I wish I could say I quit a long time ago, but the reality is that it was just near the end of last year. After I learned about how much potential damage it can wreak on your mind and body, I noticed I was in line with some of the negative symptoms and decided it would be in my best interest to quit. But I think that was bound to happen eventually. I discovered porn at a younger age, but as I grew older and matured, my interest in it waned and it started to discomfort me. I can only guess that I continued doing it merely out some warped sense of obligation and stress relief, the former of which is a kind of typical behavior of an addict. Granted, I would never say I was truly addicted to it since it was really easy for me to quit. I also always had it in the back of my mind that whenever I do get into a relationship, I would quit since I've seen the kind of strain it can bring into one, and just because I think it would be uncouth. No matter what, it was going to be put to an end in one way or another.

With all of that in mind, it's easy to see where I fall in that spectrum. Though I think the timing is important to consider. I was introduced to porn at the age of 12. No amount of rational thought and logical reasoning could ever convince a stereotypical 12 year old that there could be ramifications for watching it. Porn became extremely easy to access around that time. It was also around the point where "sexual deviancy" (I guess) was becoming normalized. Nobody ever told me it was wrong or even bad for you, with some even arguing that it's good for you. Heck, even some of the more liberal couples were watching it together, the idea of which sickens me if I'm being honest. People who suggested that it could be wrong were pretty much crucified. Vehemently ridiculed for supposedly imposing on sexual freedom. That type of backlash to criticism when it comes to anything sex-related is far, far more severe today, but I digress. The point is that I was not intelligent enough to be self-aware and think for myself because I was a child dealing with puberty, and nobody around me ever presented an opposing narrative, which remained to be the case even after I became an adult. Now my story isn't even remotely unique; honestly, it's probably going to be a very common one from my generation. Now none of that will ever alleviate the personal responsibility I had in all of this, but I think you'll find that most males who are introduced to porn or anything like it at a young age are going to be similar cases. They'll either break out of it like I did, or ignorantly carry on with it.

On one hand, I'm ashamed to have used porn before at all, but on the other hand, I'm somewhat grateful I did because I eventually came out of it as a better, stronger person once I quit. I've managed to expunge the influence it had on my mind. My mentality on sex is better now; I have no warped sense of what it should be. I don't really think about it much either. All I know is that it'll matter once I'm married and that I should save all of my sexual energy for her. I said earlier that I was highly embarrassed about having to admit my former porn usage to people, but I never intended to keep that a secret from my future spouse, since she of all people would deserve to know. I don't like keeping secrets in general, nor do I like hiding things from important people in my life.

So something to consider is that sex also exists in just about every entertainment medium outside of porn. It's in TV shows, in movies, in advertisements, in books, in magazines, in video games, etc. You couldn't do anything without encountering it in some way, which is exactly how the business aspect behind sex wants it to be. You'd be hard pressed to find someone, especially a male, who doesn't think about sex to the level that the industry wants them to think about it. There is also this sense of "political correctness" behind being sexually uninhibited that is undoubtedly having its effect on society. Sex is kind of a joke commodity these days. That especially makes me put more value on physical inexperience. Being physically inexperienced in this day and age will most of the time come down to personal reasons. Yes, there are people who are virgins only because they have significant issues, but I believe that case to be a minority. The rest will usually have pretty healthy reasons for remaining a virgin. That tends to make them mentally attractive in my eyes too.

In a nutshell, I suppose you could accuse me of making excuses for myself and anybody else, and I wouldn't really blame you for doing that. It's a peculiar position for me to be in. Maybe I'm mentally clean now, but I know I can't ever be mentally pure. That scar will always be there. Whether or not you could tolerate something like that from somebody like me is still up to you. I'm not judging. I suppose it's obvious that someone like me wouldn't hold it against anybody else, because if I did that would just make me a hypocrite. I surrendered the ability to do that when I was 12, but even if I could, personally I still wouldn't hold it against them. Society is really not far off from literally injecting an obsession with sex into our brains, so I'm fine with just physical purity. I think it's easier to forgive someone for watching images/videos of sex on a screen (or reading erotica, fantasizing, etc.) versus having consensual physical intimacy with another person, but again, that's just me. I still have my own physical purity at least, and I've never emotionally committed to anyone before. Hopefully those aren't invalidated.

OK, I know I did exactly what you didn't want to happen and take this discussion extremely off topic, and I'm truly sorry about that. Guess I was just a bit too enthralled and felt the need to assault everyone with yet another of my massively long posts. Really, I am sorry. Actually I'm ambivalent about even submitting this post, (especially with how personal I'm being) but I think I'll do so anyway and accept any consequences that come with it, just so I know better next time. Honestly I'm absolutely terrified, but here it is!

Wow ...

@Adam

Thank you so very much for having had the courage to share this with us...It's extremely edifying...and helpful...

And as @redgrapessaid, that reveals your humility and also your willingness to improve yourself and guard yourself for your future spouse.

I have much respect for you because of  your honesty and  the fact you don't try to appear someone you're not : that reveals a strong character and courage also.

Unfortunately, as you described, your story and experience in this area is not uncommon, because of the sex industry and their intention to make more and more money ...even if hat means destroying millions and millions of lives...

I understand that for men, this is a real struggle and it always brings me a great joy when someone gets victory over it :)

So : CONGRATULATION for your victory in this area and I encourage you to continue in this path. Our society really needs men like you :)

@redgrapes : I do agree with many things you said...thank you very much for your contribution ...it's helpful indeed :)

@blackrose: I learned some valuable things by reading your posts also even if I don't agree with everything you said ^_^

 

  PS: I will always be impressed by humility and honesty in a man. Those things are not easy to practice and they are qualities that I find really attractive in  a man :)

 

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@Adam Thanks a lot for that, I appreciate it a lot :D  I tend to get used to saying things without thinking about them if I feel the situation calls for it specifically (although I did want to leave it out as well but I though it would be better to include it to make things more fair). I guess it's rarer for females to admit things like that too since it's seen as such a male issue. But I am glad you could relate to what I've said, thanks again :) 

@Geraldine That's fine that you don't agree with things I've said. I'm not expecting everyone to agree at all since that would be a bit boring :P  I've found the same with other posts in this forum; yours included  since you do post  a lot on other issues which are also interesting to read and learn from. Whether I agree on them or not is another matter entirely. But if we all had the same viewpoint, there would be no need for this forum to exist at all :lol:

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2 hours ago, BlackRose said:

@Adam Thanks a lot for that, I appreciate it a lot :D  I tend to get used to saying things without thinking about them if I feel the situation calls for it specifically (although I did want to leave it out as well but I though it would be better to include it to make things more fair). I guess it's rarer for females to admit things like that too since it's seen as such a male issue. But I am glad you could relate to what I've said, thanks again :) 

@Geraldine That's fine that you don't agree with things I've said. I'm not expecting everyone to agree at all since that would be a bit boring :P  I've found the same with other posts in this forum; yours included  since you do post  a lot on other issues which are also interesting to read and learn from. Whether I agree on them or not is another matter entirely. But if we all had the same viewpoint, there would be no need for this forum to exist at all :lol:

:lol::P

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@Adam I am glad you did open up and that my words contributed to boosting your morale. :) You deserve the recognition! I can tell a conscientious person when I come across one. ;) Thank you for your encouraging words as well. 

@BlackRose (Responding to your earlier post:) I definitely agree that our individual experiences shape what we value and our preferences in a partner. My life has strangely included both extremes of the spectrum you mentioned, so I'm hesitant to use it as a defining factor for anything. It's true I made friends readily and effortlessly, despite being shy, even in brief periods of time. I never had a "community" (no church attendance or relatives nearby) but did have a few long term friends around my age. The process of getting to know people can be enjoyable to me, so I never thought of befriending others as pointless; even if I would only know them for a day, that would be a special moment we shared. While I did have plenty of socializing during certain periods of my life, I've also spent significant time in an isolated location (the home I grew up in is very secluded). Both suited me just fine. I have gone over two weeks without seeing another human- not a one. I know how to live in extreme solitude without any form of intimacy whatsoever. My thoughts seemingly come from my eclectic life experiences and my contemplative nature. From the posts I've read, it appears many waiters want someone similar in experience, both type and extent, because they believe it will be easier to relate with them or there will be a sense of balance or equality in the relationship. And those experiences seem to be greatly affected by upbringing.

@Geraldine Thank you. :) I am flattered if I said anything you agree with! Also, I'm always happy to see your participation on the forum. ^_^ 

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@Adam That's not to say that admitting those details as a guy isn't a big deal and what's even better is that you've overcome it as have I which is what matters :D  People masking their true intentions is what has made it hard for me to trust people even now and is probably going to be the biggest hurdle my potential spouse will have to face since I'm so weary of people. I've seen to many issues within my external family, work and "friends" that it's safer for me to work from distrust and then as they earn it, I'll eventually open up. 

@redgrapes Interesting to hear about your experiences. I'm not saying that what I've said relates to everyone and as you've suggested it certainly hasn't been in your case. Solitude is fine and I'm more than happy to be alone for extended amounts of time if need be and even out of choice like it was during school. However, especially at school and uni, I've had situations where even if I'm surrounded by people, I feel isolated and that can sometimes be even worse than just being physically alone. Due to those experiences, I actually prefer solitude since it's less complicated. It's great that you still find making friendships useful, even if it is for a day at least. I guess for me, it's either all or nothing and unless I see it working for the long-haul, it's easier to have a detachable relationship which has pretty much been every relationship I've had apart from family.

However, you also mentioned in one of your earlier posts that you have been in romantic relationship and you've also had long-term friends around your age - even a small group like that helps change your outlook on things like friendships and relationships - what you value and don't value. I know for my brother and sister, they have not moved schools nearly as much as I have so they have had the ability to make long-term friends which I do think helps them be a bit more tolerant in accepting certain areas whereas I tend to have a lack of tolernace to certain issues. 

21 hours ago, redgrapes said:

From the posts I've read, it appears many waiters want someone similar in experience, both type and extent, because they believe it will be easier to relate with them or there will be a sense of balance or equality in the relationship. And those experiences seem to be greatly affected by upbringing.

This I definitely agree with though :) 

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