loyalhero90

Suspicious of women?

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This is kind of a spin off from Evincebal's thread. I remember seeing some comments that seem like men are more suspicious of women in the financial area that in the physical (assault) area. This kind of makes sense. Men are more or less still seen as the financial providers and it is usually proper etiquette for a man to pay for the first date dinner, if a couple has a baby and the mom wants to keep it then the man pays child's support and so on. There actually seems to be a growing trend where men are refusing to pay for the first meal and other items so that they won't be taken advantage of (and it is also kind of a feminist backlash).  So while men can still definitely be afraid of a physical assault ( like stalker Glen Close action) there is still a heavy insistence on the pocket book. So are men suspicious of gold diggers and greedy women? Or is it actually not that much of a problem?

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I'd say that's definitely a large part of it, but it also has to do with changes in society. Many women want it both ways--demanding "equality" in every area of life except when it comes to the bill, where men are still expected to be the spenders/providers (in which case they aren't really egalitarian). And I admit that I am highly suspicious of such women. A woman who earns as much as, or even more than, her partner has no moral right to expect him to pay for a date.

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It's kind of a big concern. I don't ever want to be in a situation where my wife decides she wants a divorce (even if I don't want one) and then I have to end up paying her alimony for a divorce I didn't even want.

A woman not splitting the bill on the first date wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me, but I would prefer a woman who wanted to split the bill. It would show that she understands that we live in a time where both men and women work and where it is not realistic in many (most, probably) cases to live a comfortable lifestyle on a single income.

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Wow interesting one ?? Suspicious of women yes they are of course from Venus ?,!! Everyone knows that.

Hmmm read the paying for the bill on the 1st date debate a few times on here now. I'm afraid I always insist on paying, It's what a proper chap does whether he can afford it or not. Call me British if you wish ? Or even old fashioned. After the first date well that's one to discuss if needed.

Personally a lady deserves to be treated like a lady, Yes I hold open doors ( and been critisized for it) by "ladies". But I still do it because its a mark of respect. A lady deserves to be treated respectfully but as an equal, all in all when we meet our true soul mate we know that we are equal in this world, we realise that as chaps we have qualities that our partner doesn't and vica versa.

Phew I will go sit down for a rest now lol...

Col.

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To a degree, I am cautious of greedy women but I wouldn't say I'm suspicious. I have been burned once before by a girl I knew in college whom I played the role of the nice guy to. She coldly rejected me for a bad boy only to be horribly abused and ended up with an unplanned pregnancy. Years later, I ran into her again and she was an emotional and (I hate to say this) a physical wreck. Despite the past, I still felt terrible for her up until the point where she had the audacity to ask for me back. I felt insulted because I knew I was simply her "back up guy" and only wanted me to clean up her mess and raise her child for her. There were some who called me heartless and somehow stupidly accused me of viewing her as "damaged goods." It's interesting how we encourage girls to know their worth and not settle for jerks yet I'm supposed to feel privileged for being a girl's sugar daddy/second choice, If I refuse, then I'm somehow the jerk. I think I deserve a girl who will love me for me. Why would I want someone who doesn't even value me as a human being?

 

For a brief time, I used to think most women were materialistic gold diggers because of this one experience. But I quickly realized that's just foolish and I think these women are but a small minority. Still, it doesn't hurt to be a little cautious. But I don't think detecting greedy women is as simple as girls detecting guys who just want sex. All a girl has to do is WTM she can weed out all the pigs. For guys, I think the best way if a girl stayed with you if you were poor. The problem is no guy wants to be poor in the first place. lol

 

Yet despite all that, I agree with HWS. Maybe I am old-fashioned too, but I believe that guys should pay for at least the first couple dates. I think it's one of the ways we can show classy ladies they are special to us. For most guys, wasting a little money to uncover a greedy woman is easier to recover from than a girl investing herself emotionally to uncover a pig.

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I know this is in the Ask the Guy's section, but I wanted to throw in a situation I came across.

 

Once I went out on a date with a guy who seemed really bothered by the fact I offered to pay for half the bill on the first date. He seemed actually insulted.

 

Sometimes us girls don't even know what the "polite" way to respond is in financial situations. I was always told by my mother you need to make the offer to pay when going out with a guy, but how many times do you insist? It can go back and forth...

 

"How much do I need to pay?"

"Oh, no, I've got it"

"Are you sure?"

"Yeah, it's fine."

"Thanks, can I at least pay for the tip?"

"No really,  I got this." *noticeably annoyed*

 

Awkward. :P

 

If it's really important that she pays half, just ask her. That way if she wasn't sure, it'll be a relief to know what you prefer. And you can have a chat about "paying" and get to know her better and see if she has a similar perspective to you.

 

Then again, I'm not really a feminist. So I'm probably working with ideas that are 50 years old. I believe in equality when it comes to major things like voting, education, jobs, etc. But I'm a girl, I want to feel protected by someone I'd be considering as a future husband. Yes, I want the doors opened for me, a guiding hand on my back to steer me away from oncoming traffic, and an offer for help if I can't open the jar lid. I'd also find happiness and a sense of a achievement by supporting my husband in any way he needed to be successful. His success would be my success. Keeping in mind reality... if we needed two incomes I would continue to work full time.

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My personal opinion? SOunds weird probably but on a first date I like if the girl offers (showing that she doesn't just expect me to pay without any consideration) and then I will (politely) tell her heck no I've got it :D If she really kept insisting I wouldn't find that particularly endearing...I'm on a date I'm not at the bar with my buddy.

 

Once you're past the initial stages its nice to be treated every once in awhile but for the first couple dates I think the guy should pay BUT I do like when the girl offers once even though I know I'm going to get the check, if that makes sense.

 

For example, Sally and I's first date she offered and I declined and paid. Perfect situation. I had gone on another date a couple months prior (it was actually a set up, I'd never met the girl) and when the bill came she didn't offer, didn't even say a word, and I picked it up. Didn't like that. Of course she didn't even thank me either so maybe that's clouding my memory haha, needless to say that was our only date :P

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Here's an idea...wait til the waiter asks "is this on one check?" The guy (if he has a brain) will speak up and go "Yeah just one." At this point, once the waiter(ess) walks away look at him and say something like "are you sure?" or something like that but don't be pushy. Say it in a nice way...kind of a "oh you're so sweet are you sure?" type way so its not as likely to be insulting but you seem as if maybe you didn't completely expect him to pay, even if you did haha.

 

I know its all pretty dumb but it's the world we live in. Etiquette's a fussy thing.

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@Jenny-I'm kind of surprised a guy would get offended by you offering to pay. Maybe he took it to mean that you didn't have a good time? He thought by him paying it would have been a sign that you were "connected" to him since he bought you a meal, but that you paying for yourself meant you were going separate ways. I don't view things like this, but maybe he did.

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@DD - I will remember that phrase for next time. Now to give the heads up to all waiter(ess) to ask that question. :P Would make things so much easier.

 

@wny - Could be. Maybe it made it seem more like a friend thing to him. I had a girl tell me that she always offers to pay if she isn't interested in a guy, so he won't get the wrong idea. I never thought about it that way before.

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Jenny, I think like DD pointed out, offering once to pay is enough and it shows you're considerate. I don't agree with that guy feeling insulted, but I can understand that maybe he felt you were implying it wasn't working out and it's best to stay friends. Personally, I really don't care for the shift in dating practices in society because it leads to so much confusion and different expectations on how a date should be conducted. You situation is just proof of that. Maybe I'm just too old fashioned, but I am genuinely shocked at how many guys these days expect the girl to split the bill and how many girls just accept it as normal. Like you were saying you want to feel protected and treated like a lady, as a guy, I want to feel like a man by being given the opportunity to provide. I think these are natural desires for most men and women.I don't see the need for society to deviate from the tried-and-true traditional way of dating where there was a commonly understood structure to avoid confusion and misinterpretation of intent. But that's just my opinion.

 

As long as the girl appreciates the gesture and doesn't expect me to pay every time, I'd rather stick to the tradition of guys paying for the first couple dates.

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@evincebal-I think there were misundertandings back then, too. The guy was expected to pay no matter what, so he still wouldn't know if the woman liked him or not. The guy paying and the woman accepting wouldn't have been a sign of anything one way or the other.

Also, it is important to keep in mind that dating rituals always change. It's not like that was the way it's always been and suddenly there was a huge change. There was a time when a man taking a woman out was a new thing. Before that there wasn't "dating." There were formal and even arranged courtships.

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wny, it was probably very minimal. Growing up, my parents assumed I was interested in every girl I hung out with when in fact we were just friends. They told me two platonic friends of the opposite sex hanging out one on one were not nearly as common in their generation as it is ours. If a guy and a girl were alone, there was almost always romantic intention behind it.

 

While I understand that dating rituals change, not all change is necessarily good. Namely, I don't think anyone of us will agree that the increased pressure to have sex in the early stages of dating, let alone the first date, is a good change.

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I'd say that's definitely a large part of it, but it also has to do with changes in society. Many women want it both ways--demanding "equality" in every area of life except when it comes to the bill, where men are still expected to be the spenders/providers (in which case they aren't really egalitarian). And I admit that I am highly suspicious of such women. A woman who earns as much as, or even more than, her partner has no moral right to expect him to pay for a date.

I do find a strong feminists view point off putting especially when it comes to the rights of men but I must caution you about the view of women wanting too much mostly because you might end up stereotyping women who, though have a career, have a more traditional mind set. I would find it unfair that I have to technically be poor or in the service of a man for him to even attempt to pay for my meal; that payment would seem out of pity then out of real respect. I expect to have a high paying career but a guy offering to pay my dinner would signal to me that he doesn't care about my career status; he just wants me to know he cares about my well-being. I just hope you are not focusing too much on the feminist viewpoint in your decision making because most women do want a career but that doesn't make them spoiled, money hungry brats.

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For a brief time, I used to think most women were materialistic gold diggers because of this one experience. But I quickly realized that's just foolish and I think these women are but a small minority. Still, it doesn't hurt to be a little cautious. But I don't think detecting greedy women is as simple as girls detecting guys who just want sex. All a girl has to do is WTM she can weed out all the pigs. For guys, I think the best way if a girl stayed with you if you were poor. The problem is no guy wants to be poor in the first place. lol

 

Yet despite all that, I agree with HWS. Maybe I am old-fashioned too, but I believe that guys should pay for at least the first couple dates. I think it's one of the ways we can show classy ladies they are special to us. For most guys, wasting a little money to uncover a greedy woman is easier to recover from than a girl investing herself emotionally to uncover a pig.

I know this might sound strange but one way I would try to weed out greedy women is by the way they dress or act. This type of technique would have to be used on the truly spoiled "princesses" but it could lead to something. For example, look at her purse and her clothing. Is she wearing really revealing clothes that are quite tight or are they modestly cut. Does her purse have a DG, Gucci or other insignia? I know this might sound really strange but try to see if you can get her talking about her hair care maintenance. If she spends all day in the salon and even expels how much she paid for her hair then that could be a sign. Actually if she talks about how much her stuff costs at than that should be a red flag. Also if she talks about famous people she knows could be an indicator. I know it might not seem like girls talk about this but I have met many who do and I know women who have spent $300 on fake hair. Another thing to look at is how much make-up she is wearing. Make-up(at least the good stuff) is generally expensive so if she is packing it on then that means she is paying a lot for it and thus values her outward appearance strongly. Basically, a look of general high maintenance on clothing that are highly sexualized could be a good indicator. Of course this can fall through the cracks but many women who I have talked with who do have a greedy mentality all kind of followed this rubric and they were generally a little narcissistic.

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I know this is in the Ask the Guy's section, but I wanted to throw in a situation I came across.

 

Once I went out on a date with a guy who seemed really bothered by the fact I offered to pay for half the bill on the first date. He seemed actually insulted.

 

Sometimes us girls don't even know what the "polite" way to respond is in financial situations. I was always told by my mother you need to make the offer to pay when going out with a guy, but how many times do you insist? It can go back and forth...

 

"How much do I need to pay?"

"Oh, no, I've got it"

"Are you sure?"

"Yeah, it's fine."

"Thanks, can I at least pay for the tip?"

"No really,  I got this." *noticeably annoyed*

 

Awkward. :P

 

If it's really important that she pays half, just ask her. That way if she wasn't sure, it'll be a relief to know what you prefer. And you can have a chat about "paying" and get to know her better and see if she has a similar perspective to you.

 

Then again, I'm not really a feminist. So I'm probably working with ideas that are 50 years old. I believe in equality when it comes to major things like voting, education, jobs, etc. But I'm a girl, I want to feel protected by someone I'd be considering as a future husband. Yes, I want the doors opened for me, a guiding hand on my back to steer me away from oncoming traffic, and an offer for help if I can't open the jar lid. I'd also find happiness and a sense of a achievement by supporting my husband in any way he needed to be successful. His success would be my success. Keeping in mind reality... if we needed two incomes I would continue to work full time.

I am not a feminist also. I'm all for voting, education and job equality but some of the social aspects are not my cup of tea. I am VERY confused with this whole paying for the first date thing especially. I was raised that men take the first check and if he didn't he was either a gold digger himself, completely jobless and wanted you to support him, or just a jackbag who did not care about you. Now it is almost the norm for men not to pay and that hinders my character analysis. I honestly see nothing wrong with a guy opening doors, paying for the first date, buying flowers, or any other "tradition" thing. I honestly find all of that extremely sweet.

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Here's an idea...wait til the waiter asks "is this on one check?" The guy (if he has a brain) will speak up and go "Yeah just one." At this point, once the waiter(ess) walks away look at him and say something like "are you sure?" or something like that but don't be pushy. Say it in a nice way...kind of a "oh you're so sweet are you sure?" type way so its not as likely to be insulting but you seem as if maybe you didn't completely expect him to pay, even if you did haha.

 

I know its all pretty dumb but it's the world we live in. Etiquette's a fussy thing.

Hmmm...good tip. So no pushy and genuinely be sincere. What if there is an awkward silence should I say "Would you like me to pay for half?" instead of saying "It's okay I'll pay"...as in I'll ask him to make sure he isn't insulted or something.

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@evincebal-I think there were misundertandings back then, too. The guy was expected to pay no matter what, so he still wouldn't know if the woman liked him or not. The guy paying and the woman accepting wouldn't have been a sign of anything one way or the other.

Also, it is important to keep in mind that dating rituals always change. It's not like that was the way it's always been and suddenly there was a huge change. There was a time when a man taking a woman out was a new thing. Before that there wasn't "dating." There were formal and even arranged courtships.

Just to put in my two cents, during the time when it was mandatory for the man to pay there were two main things that contributed. Number one, women were not allowed to have formal jobs nor did they really inherit any money from their parents (all went to sons) so the woman had to find a man to marry to ensure a healthy well life. Since the woman did not have money then a nice thing for a man to do was pay for her meal. This also includes things like gifts, girls just didn't have enough money to get guys gifts and she didn't want to look desperate.  Also, if a dowry was involved, a man paying for meals and gifts really proved that the man could take care of the daughter and not out only for the dowry. Though there are grey areas within this if a woman accepted a man's gift AND wore it then that was sign that she liked him. Since marriage was so important for women during different periods a man who did take a women out to dinner, bought her gifts and such was most likely going to be her new husband.

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I know this might sound strange but one way I would try to weed out greedy women is by the way they dress or act. This type of technique would have to be used on the truly spoiled "princesses" but it could lead to something. For example, look at her purse and her clothing. Is she wearing really revealing clothes that are quite tight or are they modestly cut. Does her purse have a DG, Gucci or other insignia? I know this might sound really strange but try to see if you can get her talking about her hair care maintenance. If she spends all day in the salon and even expels how much she paid for her hair then that could be a sign. Actually if she talks about how much her stuff costs at than that should be a red flag. Also if she talks about famous people she knows could be an indicator. I know it might not seem like girls talk about this but I have met many who do and I know women who have spent $300 on fake hair. Another thing to look at is how much make-up she is wearing. Make-up(at least the good stuff) is generally expensive so if she is packing it on then that means she is paying a lot for it and thus values her outward appearance strongly. Basically, a look of general high maintenance on clothing that are highly sexualized could be a good indicator. Of course this can fall through the cracks but many women who I have talked with who do have a greedy mentality all kind of followed this rubric and they were generally a little narcissistic.

 

Actually, what you said makes a lot of sense. I have friends who are much more observant than I try to size up random girls passing by based on their appearance and belongings. For example, this one time one of my friends saw a girl who was all dolled up and he pointed out she had some expensive brand bag and he speculated she was probably high maintenance. Luckily for me, I've always been attracted to modest, girl-next-door types of women. You raise good points and I will definitely keep an eye out for these details. Thanks!

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I do find a strong feminists view point off putting especially when it comes to the rights of men but I must caution you about the view of women wanting too much mostly because you might end up stereotyping women who, though have a career, have a more traditional mind set. I would find it unfair that I have to technically be poor or in the service of a man for him to even attempt to pay for my meal; that payment would seem out of pity then out of real respect. I expect to have a high paying career but a guy offering to pay my dinner would signal to me that he doesn't care about my career status; he just wants me to know he cares about my well-being. I just hope you are not focusing too much on the feminist viewpoint in your decision making because most women do want a career but that doesn't make them spoiled, money hungry brats.

 

No. There's a difference between the man being expected to pay, and the man paying without being expected to do so. If you earn as much or more than your partner and he pays anyway, good for you; what I'm saying is that you have no right to expect that. There's a difference between paying because your partner (or society) wants you to, and paying out of generosity.

 

I, for the record, intend to pay anyway (for the first date), but only with the latter point of view.

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Hmmm...good tip. So no pushy and genuinely be sincere. What if there is an awkward silence should I say "Would you like me to pay for half?" instead of saying "It's okay I'll pay"...as in I'll ask him to make sure he isn't insulted or something.

Yeah I would say ask...that way (hopefully) it knocks some sense into him in that split second and he pays for you. I'm with the rest of you though, call me old fashioned, but it just boggles my mind to think about a guy not paying on the first date.

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I'd say that's definitely a large part of it, but it also has to do with changes in society. Many women want it both ways--demanding "equality" in every area of life except when it comes to the bill, where men are still expected to be the spenders/providers (in which case they aren't really egalitarian). And I admit that I am highly suspicious of such women. A woman who earns as much as, or even more than, her partner has no moral right to expect him to pay for a date.

I have similar views. I feel like a lot of women nowadays want to be superior to men, not equal. They want all the benefits of equal rights (having equal access to education & jobs, getting equal pay, ect...), but none of the downfalls. They still want men to pay for everything as though women still aren't working. At the end of the day, that just does not make sense to me. Even though it apparently "boggles" some people's minds, count me in as a guy who prefers splitting the bill. When we're married I want us to be equal partners in earning money and paying bills, so I would want to set that precedent right away with the very first date.

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