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Everything posted by Joshua

  1. The Bible & Wifely Submission

    Hi Proverbs. As we discuss this now in this thread, indeed it's also a reality that virtuous men have commanded their virtuous wives in holiness. It's also true that virtuous men have suffered through lives with sinful rebellious wives. It's also true that sinful men and and sinful wives have ruined the biblical institution of marriage, following no scripture... My comment here was in support of Johnny's statement, that indeed we can imagine a whole host of negative scenarios but it provides no net benefit to the discussion (of a wife submitting biblically) to argue these instances unless it can be proven that the *majority* of Christian husbands - as a rule - command their submissive wives to sin. If you can't prove that, it's a waste of time to consider the virtue of this issue based on that. I don't really understand your contention here. Aren't ALL followers of Christ commanded to follow Christ's example, which *supersedes* any relationship we have with one another? Paul's letter came after Christ's gospel. Indeed Christ's example is for women and men, as such is paramount to this faith, isn't it? Is Christ all of our example...or are you implying that Christ is just men's example to follow (leaving women without obligation or *right* to Christ)? We must consider the entire counsel of God with issues (i.e. all of scripture). For instance, I could've said women must submit to their husbands like Israel (called God's wife [Jeremiah 3:8]) submitted to Nebuchadnezzar (book of Daniel) in the OT, and it would've been scripturally accurate, because God appointed him as "head" over Israel. And what's interesting is Neb is considered a "vessel of dishonor" (i.e. a bad guy) who was responsible for Israel's *punishment* and *suffering*...appointed by God over his "wife". I could've then referenced Paul's NT instruction to submit to government (Romans 13:1) - as an example of a wife's responsibility to submit to her husband - because that's the "authority (head)" God ordained over the people. And as such an ordained authority, Paul also commands not to *resist* or *rebel against* the authority placed over you because God is the one who established it (Romans 13:2). So whether that authority is good or evil, one who's under an authority is required to submit to it because those placed in certain positions of authority by God (parents/husbands/governors/presidents/priests/kings) *must* answer to God at the end of days for how they handled their responsibility. It's not our job to judge them as worthy of our submission as children/wives/subjects/flock/people. The way of God is not a democracy (i.e. bottom-up). It's a theocracy (top-down). This should make it clear whether we should resist any authority over us for any reason: Child to parent; wife to husband; people to government; church to Christ; Christ to God. Again here's 1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. the hierarchy of authority (headship) is: God Christ Man (as Husband) Woman (as Wife) You miss the point of marriage and you miss the point of biblical faith. Why marry someone if you're not going to trust them?? In biblical marriage you are agreeing to a head over you of you're a woman, and a responsibility of headship if you are a man. And with that agreement the woman is expected to have faith in her husband that he is a man of God, while the man is to have faith that his wife is a woman of God. But if these two things are untrustworthy to you (man or woman) then by all means do not marry. It's better if you remained single. We don't operate off of what we see. We operate off of faith, which necessitates believing in what we *do not see* (Heb 11:1), so your evidence doesn't translate into valid reasons for a woman to be ready to resist or rebel her husband. "What God joins together" (Matthew 19:6) means he has ordained that husband over that wife. And if she CHOOSES to make him her head (as no one is forcing her into it), her responsibility is to submit to her husband. His responsibility is to submit to Christ. Christ's responsibility is to submit to God. So the best advice for any Christians seeking marriage is to weight the costs (Luke 14:28), both man and woman. ...but by all means red flag me
  2. Gif Warrrrrrrrrr (ARRR)!!

    What do you think? Real or fake? I have no clue.
  3. Gif Warrrrrrrrrr (ARRR)!!

    That's amazing lol
  4. Finally, a safe haven...hopefully.

    Lol! Why, thank you KIP
  5. Greetings from Asia

    Hey I know you! lol Welcome
  6. Gif Warrrrrrrrrr (ARRR)!!

    Freaky and funny lol
  7. Gif Warrrrrrrrrr (ARRR)!!

    lol this seems rather fitting for this forum ...sort of
  8. hi!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Happy to meet you Amy
  9. Finally, a safe haven...hopefully.

    I appreciate the welcome, Chak!
  10. Gif Warrrrrrrrrr (ARRR)!!

    Very cool!
  11. Gif Warrrrrrrrrr (ARRR)!!

    This was so shocking lol
  12. Hmm..I see where you're going with this Godsphysicist (i.e. "don't judge others"), and I agree 100%. But...while sex is a primal instinct, people won't die if they don't have sex you know (unlike they will if they don't eat)? So watching porn is not really analogous with stealing food to eat if one's starving. It's more so analogous with smoking or drinking as in, it's unnecessary for maintaining one's life but once engaged it becomes an addition. I think the effort isn't to attack those who are victims of porn, but to stop porn from making new victims.
  13. New VTM

    welcome Kristine!
  14. I think the best thing to do is not to make the temptation bigger than it already is, and to trust that both are in the same place as waiters. There's a reason why both have resisted for as long as each has, so lean on each other's strength. She will have had the strength to say no before me, and I have had the strength to say no before I think there should be less pressure on the two in my opinion. So continue to respect the resistance each has brought to the relationship. Don't willingly lower your guards. You're still categorized as each other's temptation to avoid until you're married. As the man, I'd enforce the "no actively tempting each other" rule. As you point out Géraldine, there will be enough temptation naturally burning within both of you so there's no need to fuel the fire. Ideas like: - Kiss, but no smooches (or french kisses) - Touch, but with certain areas **off limits** - Cuddle, but no lap sitting or spooning - Flirt, but no seduction - Talk about sex (as done here), but maybe avoid graphic details. There's plenty of time for details / "show & tell" later - Avoid being alone with each other if your desires are too strong In other words, don't intend to do anything that would actively engage each other's nether regions lol. Respect the person who is still not your spouse. And when the flames naturally get too high, separate for a time. I don't mean break up, but take some "me" time to do something else until you both cool down. Put a little space between you: - Conclude for the day and each go home (if together) - Take a day off from messaging each other - Hang out with friends or family - Surf the web - Get some work done - Do whatever you did when you were single (except looking for someone else), knowing you have your person. She and I would be on the final leg of a pretty long endurance race, with the finish line just in reach, so there's no need to sabotage each other when we're almost done; losing it before we've make it. So with this rule I think dating/courtship should flow just fine for the two. ...but it remains to be seen.
  15. Finally, a safe haven...hopefully.

    Thank you sir...and thank you!
  16. Finally, a safe haven...hopefully.

    I really appreciate the offer armytiger. Yes. smh it can be very frustrating at times and I'm glad there are those who've been through similar situations who can lend a shoulder to lean on. Not minimizing the struggle for any of the ladies here, but.........the force is strong with guys, so to say (lol). And when opportunities (temptations?) present themselves such can erode a guy's defenses. So I will definitely take advantage of your offer kind sir, whenever those times come. Greatly appreciate it!
  17. The Bible & Wifely Submission

    Hmm...that's a fair opinion but I don't think worship is a factor here - for Christ or the wife - when discussing submission, so I don't think the wife would be in danger of idolatry by completely submitting to her husband. Remember Christ was of equal form with Father God, as also God himself, and yet still completely submitted to his will (to empty himself of his godhood and become human). Christ didn't submit to the Father because of the characteristics that made the Father God, because Christ had the same characteristics. I think the reason why Christ completely submitted is simple: because Father God is over him in authority as his "head". 1 Corinthians 11:3 - But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. there's a hierarchy of authority (headship): God Christ Man (as Husband) Woman (as Wife) Also, could you explain what you mean by temporal death vs eternal death with regards to using Christ as an example for a wife submitting until death? I understand what they are but I'm not sure what you mean here in relation to the discussion. Thanks.
  18. The Bible & Wifely Submission shouldn't look to a parent-child relationship model, Steadfast Madcap. One should look to "Christ presented as the perfect example of submission" model. It's his behavior in relation to his "head", spurred by his strength, trust and faith in that "head", that the Christian believer should look to. When one reduces God and Christ's relationship to the natural, outside of the faith, one misses the point. I mean, one who doesn't believe can challenge anything Christ did - or anything the bible says - as a faulty model for any subject...but it's what Christian believers are specifically expected to look to for guidance, you know? But to the main topic, could you share a few biblical examples of women who go against their husband's will that weren't painted negatively? I think I have one in mind and I need to find the passage but I'm curious which ones you're thinking of.
  19. I'd be fine with it. My last gf initiated contact with me. I like what waitingforcarats says: all a woman really has to do is give a green light. The guy should take it from there if he's interested and available.
  20. The Bible & Wifely Submission

    I think Candace does a great job in explaining what it means for a woman to be a submissive wife. It's unfortunate that submission is seen as slavery or oppression by this generation. But of course, many biblical principles are cast in a negative light, so I guess such is to be expected with this issue also. I agree with Johnny when he says we shouldn’t focus so much on hypothetical situations that are exceptions to the rule. But I’d like to take a different angle before answering and see what you all think about it. Would the believer consider Christ “submissive†to Father God? The following is written about Christ concerning his mission to the world. Philippians 2:6-8 – who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross I recently read an article online that presented Christ as the perfect example of submission for faithful women seeking marriage. In it the writer uses passages like the one above to prove that true love is sacrifice. First Christ sacrificed his position/status in relation to God. Next, he sacrificed his will in becoming a servant. Then he sacrificed his life in humility. There’s even a famous moment in his ministry when his will and God’s will are distinguished from one another before he was to be arrested. He had tremendous fear and asked to avoid the situation if possible, saying, “if you are willing please take this cup from me.†Yet he followed that request with, “not my will but yours be done.†If the believer uses Christ’s example as a blueprint, overlaying it with the potential relationship between a Husband and wife, I think there is an interesting parallel we can draw: Man and woman are equal in form, generally speaking. But in terms of submission, if the wife follows Christ’s example should she see equality with her husband as a thing to hold on to; to take back at a moment’s notice if she doesn’t approve of a direction he’s leading her? Or should she follow the example of Christ’s tremendous love for his Father and be willing to empty herself of that equal status until the point of death? If I consider the hypothetical questions from this angle, they remind me of this scene with Christ in the garden. Christ’s head, his leader, is telling Christ he needs to be tortured, beaten, stripped naked and hung until dead. Imagine a husband saying this to his wife. Christ, considering the consequences of the direction in which his leader is taking him, had a choice to make: submit or refuse. Christ had good reason to refuse: personal safety, dignity, etc, and had the freedom to do so. “Surely you can find another way Father??â€, he could've said. Setting aside for a moment the benefit we know came from Christ going through what he went through, submitting to his head led to Christ’s degradation/humiliation, pain/suffering and gruesome death. Yet because of the depth of his love for his head, he chose to trust his head and submit to his will regardless. If Christ proved anything it’s that true love is sacrifice, and in the dynamic between a husband and wife, there’s probably no greater display of sacrifice for her than for a woman, who’s equal to man in form, to humble herself and to submit her will to his until death. Is she forced to? No. It’s her choice to - just like it’s completely her choice to marry him - and that’s what makes it her expression of true love. Christ said there’s no greater love that to lay down one’s life for a friend. So if the husband is expected to give his life for his wife wouldn’t it be love at equal measure for the wife to be a “living†sacrifice for him through submission? Now such a love/sacrifice requires strength and trust. The wife must be a very strong person to sacrifice such a freedom (which her single life afforded); to trust and have faith in her husband’s will and position as leader over her life. In a way, it becomes her testimony of her faith in what Christ did on the cross. As Christ said, “no one takes my life from me, but I lay it down of my own initiativeâ€, so she says, “no one takes my freedom or will from me, but I lay it down of my own initiative for my husbandâ€. I feel a wife’s submission to her husband is a heart issue, not necessarily an issue of obligation or ritual or tradition (just like Hebrews explains that our sin consciousness is a heart issue and not about sacrificing bulls and goats for sin). And as such one can also say the only way this “law†of submission can be fulfilled by the wife is through Christ-like love for her man. 1 John 4:17-18 - By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. Now if she's laid down her life in such a tremendous way at the feet of her husband, the onus falls on him to honor that sacrifice by never placing his wife in such a situation what would force her to do something which violates her conscience or violates God's law or any rights she has accordingly. If he does then I've no doubt he'll have to answer for it on the day of Judgment. Hebrews 10:31 - It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. That's my take on it.
  21. Finally, a safe haven...hopefully.

    Thank ya, Thank ya, Zeke!
  22. Finally, a safe haven...hopefully.

    I'm glad too Gentalman! Thanks for the welcome
  23. Do you prefer a "manly" man or a "sensitive" man?

    Well, manly men also wear tights apparently